Fran DeBenedictis, Krista Merget, Claudia Giordano
Krista Merget in 1980. Image courtesy of Fran DeBenedictis.
Fran in 1980 behind the bar of Dapper’s. Image courtesy of Fran DeBenedictis.
Fran DeBenedictis, Krista Merget and Claudia Giordano met at Dapper and Friends, a lesbian bar on East 81st Street, open from 1977 through 1982. Fran worked as a bartender, Krista waited tables and tended bar, and Claudia worked as a coatcheck. These three amazing individuals have stayed in touch over all of these years and were a part of lesbian nightlife history during a time of hedonistic freedom and identity exploration in New York City in the 1970s. Fran also served as a career-long police officer in New York and named a plaintiff in 1996 when gay and lesbian police officers filed suit in Federal court against the NYC Police Department for unequal treatment. The following conversation was recorded on Friday, June 25th, 2021 at 11:30am via Zoom from Brooklyn, NY to White Plains, Westchester and Lindenhurst, NY.
Claudia (left) and her friend KT Danger at W.O.W. Cafe Theater Collective.
Gwen Shockey: Well, we can start and if others join we can pick up and have a group conversation! So, usually I start these discussions by asking a personal question, which would be if you can remember the first place you ever were that was mostly queer people or mostly lesbian – it could have been a bar or a community space or any gathering of people – and what it felt like to be there.
Fran DeBenedictis: Go ahead Krista!
Krista Merget: Mine was at Dapper’s actually! I was at an office party and one of my colleagues wanted to go to a gay bar and Dapper’s was only about five blocks from my apartment. We went up there and I had just left my husband – I was just coming out – and Fran was the bartender and I remember saying: She doesn’t look like a lesbian! She had a long black gown on! I was like: Hm! One thing led to another and I saw a sign that said Waitresses Needed. I asked her about it and she said... (Speaking to Fran) You’re on!
FD: Do you have any experience? (Laughing) And she said, “No!” And I said: Oh! You’re hired!
GS: You must have thought she was real cute! (Laughing)
FD: She was GORGEOUS! She’s still gorgeous.
GS: That’s such a sweet story, my god. Fran, what about you?
FD: I’m three years older than Krista so I went to my first lesbian bar in 1972 when I was nineteen. I went with a friend of mine who used to tease me in high-school about me being a lesbian. It’s interesting because five of the members of the clique that I was in in high-school, three of them wound up being lesbians.
GS: Oh my god! (Laughing)
FD: Even though we weren’t out to each other. I was really the only one out until I was nineteen and this woman Camille came out to me. So, we both went and I had been involved in a relationship with a woman that I went to high-school with and she actually thought I was a guy because for many years I kind of thought I was a guy. For many years I kind of couldn’t understand the concept of lesbianism... I figured if a woman loved another woman she must be a guy. It took me a long time to come to terms with my gender. I still wonder about whether I’m truly a female! So, I went to Bonnie and Clyde’s! It was on West 3rd Street. It was the only bar I knew of. I don’t know how I found out about it but it was there! And it was like: Wow... (Smiling) The place was packed! And everybody was lesbian and I was kind of overwhelmed. So, it was major. I know they had a bouncer... Um, maybe? Maybe they did, maybe they didn’t. Maybe I’m confusing it with the Duchess. The Duchess was another bar that I went to soon after Bonnie and Clyde’s. But I’m trying to remember how I finally found Dapper’s... I was with another lover. My second lover. Her name was Barbara and we both went to Dapper’s and we both became waitresses there. This was at a time when Dapper’s, um, made us dress in four-inch heels, black pants, a white blouse, and a black bow-tie – but not on the shirt, just on your neck and your blouse was open.
GS: Wow!
FD: And that was how we worked from eight o’clock at night until four o’clock in the morning as waitresses. I remember my feet were like, killing. I don’t remember what year I started, I know I was definitely there in ’79 which was when I met Krista. And I know I was there in 1980... I don’t know if I was there past that because I became a police officer in 1981.
GS: Did you both grow up in New York?
FD: I grew up in Brooklyn!
KM: I grew up in Long Island but I was living in Manhattan from ’79 to ’89. I just want to put in there that when I went to Dapper’s the first time I felt like: Oh my god, I belong here. I felt like finally I belonged.
FD: I think she came in on New Year’s Eve because otherwise I wouldn’t have been wearing a black halter gown and heels. (Smiling) I looked very different forty years ago! Forty-one years ago?
GS: I want to talk more about the dress code because I find that quite fascinating but I’m curious before others join and we talk more about Dapper’s I’m curious to hear more about your experience navigating your queerness as young people in the ‘70s and ‘80s. You mentioned, Fran, that gender was confusing... Did finding community help both of you? Meeting other lesbians?
FD: I think so! It helped me meet other lesbians. I was actually looking into sex reassignment surgery. I actually met with a doctor. My first lover was a medical technologist and she worked at Downstate Medical Center and one of the men that was in the group there did sex reassignment surgery and I met with him one-on-one and had a session with him. I also took out books from the library in the 1960s about sex reassignment surgery and I remember the librarian was kind of horrified. Actually, they were reference books so I didn’t take them out but I asked to see them and she was like really upset about the fact that I wanted to look at them. I was out in high-school. I came out when I was fifteen. I had known about my lesbianism or my attraction to girls since grammar school. I mean I remember my first crush was in third grade. I also remember making up a lie that I had a crush on a boy. He was just cute, so I picked him. So, anyway I came out to a girl and she was fine with it. I remember holding hands with each other. I told her that I loved her. We held hands at an awards ceremony... An awards ceremony for best singer at a variety show at the high school. We were very excited because my name was called. After that something happened and she ostracized me. I think she told other people about it and they freaked her out and she wouldn’t talk to me anymore. I was devastated. My whole Junior year I was depressed and I tried to commit suicide. So, it was really tough. As far as I knew I was the only lesbian in my school and I went to catholic high school. There were like two hundred and ten other girls there. There were a couple that I assumed were lesbians but they weren’t out. I tried to get on the basketball team! I made three baskets during my...
KM: Tryout?
FD: Thank you! She feeds me words. During my tryout, yeah. But they rejected me I think because I was out. They wanted to discourage me. I told the guidance counselor. I met with her and I told her that I was a lesbian and that I was attracted to other women and she called my mother. She didn’t tell my mother what it was about but suggested to my mother that she take me out of the school and put me in a public school rather than an all girl’s school. I turned to her and I thought: Oh my god, she’s going to take me away from all of my friends? And I said: I don’t want to leave this school! And so she didn’t take me out. I stayed and I toughed it out and I made friends and the girls that I made friends with were more accepting of me and my sexual orientation. In fact, it’s interesting! One of the ones that I had a crush on was also going out with some guy and the reason why she picked this guy over me is because he had a penis. So, it was another reason why I wanted a penis. (Laughing) I could go on for hours! I monopolize things here.
GS: No! This is good! Claudia, it’s nice to see your face and thank you so much for joining! I usually start these conversations by asking everyone to remember the first queer or lesbian space they went to and what it felt like to be there. Fran and Krista were just remembering going to Bonnie and Clyde’s and Dapper’s – do you remember the first space or place you ever went to that had mostly lesbians or queer people?
CG: It was in my head two seconds ago and I forgot! It was famous... Fran would know.
FD: Which one?
CG: It was on Sheridan Square...
FD: That’s the Duchess!
CG: The Duchess! Thank you.
FD: Right on 7th Avenue South.
CG: Yes, it was the Duchess. I went there with my sister and her friends from Queens College who were part of some kind of... I don’t know. They were a part of a feminist group or something like that. So, it wasn’t particularly a lesbian group, it was like women together so it was kind of funny! (Smiling) My younger sister. So, um. It was very interesting because it was the first time I saw gay women who were very like butch/femme. It was the 1970s... ’77? Around that time. I think there was drama, you know? There’s always somebody who’s looking at someone’s girlfriend and then they start throwing beer bottles. I was kind of like: Oh! Is that how this works? (Laughing) Some woman sends me a flower and I’m like: Thanks... You know? It was so bizarre.
GS: Did any of you identify with that butch/femme dynamic?
Everyone shakes their heads, no.
CG: No, I think we were just women who wanted to be with other... You know! We didn’t really want to be around men. It wasn’t necessary always a sexual thing, it was a social and consciousness raising thing. You know? And, people still were very closeted in their own sexuality in terms of expressing it. Some women are very cut off. They don’t want to admit that they have sexual urges regardless of their orientation.
FD: Not many women in our generation were into the butch/femme thing. I think women who were born in the ‘40s were more into the butch/femme thing. Dapper was definitely a butch and her lover was definitely a femme. First Sandy and then Sylvia – they were both femmes. But even in Dapper’s – there were a lot of butch women there. Remember the woman that worked the door? She used to wear three-piece suits...
KM: I have an image of her carrying a machine gun – even though I know she didn’t – but that was the look, like, she was outta one of the gangster movies. (Laughing)
FD: I can’t remember her name.
CG: I think that was kind of a costume thing... So, when I went to the Duchess you’d see older women who had that butch look but women at that time were, you know, they sort of had just one way to look. But then it blew up! And then there were lipstick lesbians. It all made me really confused. It was like, oh no! I can’t do that... And I’m not really the other way... And I’m like, what the hell! I was really a hippy. I grew up in the hippy time and then punk. Punk was good. Anyone could be punk. I think that kind of added to the look, like Joan Jett. I love Joan Jett. It was more just like, hey, fuck you! It wasn’t like we were denying anything and it wasn’t like we were putting ourselves in, what they call now, the binary. It was like, I could be tough and feminine and hot and not get walked all over. I liked that time period. I mean, I’m sixty-six so by the time that came around I was long in the tooth, you know, I wasn’t a teenager.
GS: It sounds like all of you were coming out or discovering community in this like in-between time – sort of post butch/femme but in a time when there was a desire for more self-expression and experimentation in dress and gender presentation and stuff. Does that sound right?
FD: I think that my first experience with lesbians was really meeting lesbians through this friend Camille in the early ‘70s and then finally going into the bars and the community centers. I was at the Fire House on Houston Street and I remember sliding down the pole – it still had a pole in. And that’s the place that was fire bombed. I also remember being at the Lib, which was a lesbian and gay club – men and women. It was in the 30s – I don’t remember exactly what street but I remember it was big. I have a fleeting memory of a raid. I don’t remember if I was present or if somebody told me about it... It’s interesting, memories become fragmented.
KM: I was afraid of lesbians when I was a teenager. (Laughing) I did kiss one of my friends. I liked it more than she did. But I didn’t really come out until I got married! I married a guy! That’s when it kind of exploded because it was like, this is no good! This is not right. Just to jump to something, Fran had a really weird experience in the bar with a couple that came into Dapper’s.
FD: Yeah, it’s interesting because Krista was in the bar with me and she doesn’t remember. This was before we had a bouncer. I used to open the bar at eight o’clock and Krista was there. She was a waitress so she was working at the time with me as soon as I opened the door and a heterosexual couple probably in their forties came in. They were very tall. Krista is five two and I was almost five four at the time – they were much taller than we were. They came into the bar and they were hostile and loud and, you know, cursing and one of them picked up an ash tray – we used to have crystal ash trays on the bar – and they were going to throw it at me. Somehow I was able to make a phone call and called the police. The police showed up. It was interesting because it was two male cops and one was black and one was white and the white one came in first and the black one was close to the bar away from the couple and I tried to talk to him thinking he’d be more sympathetic but he just walked right by me. When they figured out what was going on and that this was a lesbian bar they were obviously not there to help. They said, “We’re not bouncers.” And they left us! They left the couple in the bar. Somehow I deescalated the situation and talked the guy out of assaulting us. They left on their own. But I thought to myself: Oh my god! I had taken the police test in 1979 and I was on the list and I said, I’m going to be a cop but I’m not going to be this kind of cop. I actually made a complaint! I called up the Gay and Lesbian Switchboard at the time and asked who I could complain to about it and they pretty much said nothing was going to happen, don’t even bother. So I didn’t! But yeah, it was very frightening. Krista doesn’t even remember it which I find interesting!
KM: Fran is a good deescalator. She deescalates me all the time. (Smiling)
GS: (Laughing) That’s a good partner right there! So, tell me – Fran and Krista, you met at Dapper’s but Claudia, what was your role there? Tell me how the three of you met!
CG: I’m trying to remember... I guess I went there one day and I got a job there! I was a coat check. It was weird because I was at the front. I wasn’t quite in the bar – it was like being on the outskirts. I felt safe there. (Laughing) I wasn’t really in all the action! It was like a weekend job. Which was really good actually because at the time I was in graduate school and I think I worked at the Metropolitan Museum of Art. So, this was like a side job. And I was young enough to be able to work at Dapper’s and then go to work at the museum the next morning. I don’t know how I did it. I was young!
KM: That’s how you did it Claudia! You were young!
CG: (Laughing) Who needs sleep! What does it matter! But it was also a social life! I got to get paid and hang out there and everybody was very friendly to the coat check person. It was like a thing! I think they liked to show off whoever they came to the bar with and then they’d tip me! It was like: Look at me, I’m tipping the coat check! I’ve got money! So... And then there was somebody – I think her name was Naptha at the door. She was really nice, she was Israeli. Do you remember her Fran?
FD: What was her name?
CG: Naptha? She was really nice! Really sweet – sisterly, you know, to me. It was really cute. She had a girlfriend who would show up occasionally and then they would have these big rows! It was so much drama at these bars! This is the thing! It was like everybody was like, “Grrrrrr!” There was so much of this intense drama. I was kind of observing. But that’s how I met Fran. Krista I don’t remember if I met you there...
KM: Yeah, we met! You not only were the coat check but you were a better-looking Liza Minelli!
CG: I used to have, like, dark hair and I’d put on makeup and at one point I cut my hair and I did look like Liza Minnelli. Somebody once thought I was! I was in the Bronx and I was like: Really? What would she be doing in the Bronx! I was like: Nah, nah. It’s just the eye makeup.
FD: I remember you waitressing too though Claudia. I actually don’t remember you behind the coat check, which was like a half door and in the hallway? I could understand how you were hiding there but I remember you walking around with a white shirt, the bowtie and the apron!
CG: Did I? Well, I know I did waitress later. I graduated from coat check to waitressing and I was in the bar. I think I liked coat checking better because I could just listen to the music and I’d know, ok now we’re up to that song! And as everybody got increasingly more inebriated and happy and yelling and wooo, you know, I could see how it was kind of the same every time. But I loved – Fran used to turn the lights on at last call and say, “See who you’re going home with!” So they could really see what they looked like! (Laughing) Fran was very funny. She still is!
GS: It sounds like it was quite a community there! Was Dapper’s sort of your primary queer community? For all of you? Or did you have other communities alongside it that were lesbian?
KM: Dapper’s was basically it! I remember going to the Sahara once with a girlfriend – a lover – who was engaged to a guy, that was weird... But the Sahara and the Duchess! Fran was always more involved. In everything.
FD: I was also – I was in college and I was part of the feminist club at SUNY at Old Westbury, in Westbury, Long Island. I had met lesbians there. This was in the mid ‘70s. The first time I saw lesbians was in Bonnie and Clydes but in college I met other lesbians in the feminist group. You know, consciousness raising and all of the stuff that women did in those days. I don’t think they’re doing that anymore. You know, with the mirrors and the vaginas... (Laughing) Stuff like that.
GS: I always wondered if that was actually a thing that happened! (Laughing)
FD: Yeah! (Laughing) Anyway! Yeah, so I was involved. But I went to a lot more bars and then Dapper – who was a real trip... I’m five foot almost four inches and she’s shorter than I am. She’d wear three-piece suits...
KM: She weighed like ninety pounds!
FD: She was a little, skinny, tiny thing.
GS: Did Dapper own the bar?
FD: The story is very interesting. You know? The story was... So, I’m not going to give any last names because I don’t want a libel suit! (Laughing) But the story was that Dapper was a prostitute with her girlfriend Sandra and Sandra was a Madame in a brothel in the Wall Street area and Sandra made all of this money and that Dapper stole ten thousand dollars off of her and ran and opened this bar. And then when Sandra found out about it, Sandra said, “Now that you started this I’m a half owner because it’s my money.” So, then it belonged to both of them even though Dapper had a new lover, Sylvia, who was this adorable little Latina. Also very femme. Sandra was extremely femme, Sylvia was extremely femme and Dapper was very, very butch. Dapper was also kind of a dick in the head kind of butch. That’s how I considered it. She did everything macho.
KM: And underhanded!
FD: A bully... Yeah. She was like, you know, thought she was mafia but I don’t know if the place was actually mafia-owned. She was renting the building. She could have owned the building because I remember that there was an offer for her to buy it for a hundred thousand dollars at the time and unfortunately she didn’t jump all over it. Sylvia didn’t have that kind of money. (Smiling) So, anyway. Sandy didn’t have that kind of money I should say. Sandy did have money because she had a Mercedes!
KM: Rolls-Royce!
FD: Rolls-Royce!
KM: She didn’t have a license! She bought her license. And she had a number of bumper thumpers as you say.
FD: She wound up totaling it.
KM: How do you total a Rolls!
FD: We went downtown in it in the backseat. I remember being in the backseat of a Rolls-Royce. What was it. White cloud? Silver cloud.
GS: Was Sandy around the bar a lot?
FD: Yeah. A lot. Sandy was the other... And a Madame! The other story was from a woman that dated Sandy who is now since deceased unfortunately. Actually, the other woman who I wanted to participate today named Carol – she also dated Sandy. She was kind of butch. That’s the type of woman Sandy went out with. She went out with butches.
KM: Another girlfriend that I had that hung out at the bar a lot whose name was Michelle was a stand-up comic. She kind of started out there testing the ground. Right Claudia? I see you nodding!
FD: Michelle was a waitress at Dapper’s! I know because she used to steal my tables! (Laughing) And she used to do an impression of Bette Midler – lip synch! Bette Midler... Because she looked a little bit like Bette Midler! And it was very popular. She later on became a comedian.
KM: The way I met her which was pretty funny was the ladies room was downstairs and she kind of pinned me up against the wall and she said, “My name’s Michelle. I live in the Bronx. I’ve got a king-sized bed and a queen-sized bed. We don’t have to fool around we can just talk.” One of the best pickup lines I’ve ever heard. We dated a while and then she wanted me to move in with her or get an apartment and I’m like: I’m not ready for that kind of commitment. I must not be a true lesbian. (Laughing) I wasn’t ready for that.
GS: No U-Hauling for you! (Laughing)
FD: And this was all pre-AIDS! And this was all in a time when I think that a lot of us were extremely promiscuous and adorable! When I was in a non-monogamous relationship with my second lover so... And I was the bartender! (Laughing) It was fun!
GS: (Laughing) It sounds like there were a lot of interesting power dynamics at Dapper’s! Between Sandy and Dapper and all of the different roles that were being played out there! Sounds like it was so much fun!
KM: Well, I did get a chance to hire Krista, which was nice. I don’t remember Dapper giving me a problem about the fact that you were hired. We needed waitresses at the time.
GS: Was Dapper the one who created the dress code for the staff?
FD: Yeah. Dapper was the one who came up with the four-inch excruciating heels. Do you remember wearing four-inch heels Claudia?
CG: I think I had one pair of shoes that had a bit of a heel. I’m five-foot-seven. So, I had a pair of shoes and they had a bit of a heel and they were really comfortable. I can remember them to this day but they weren’t stilettos or anything.
FD: When I first started there, there was a bit of a woman by the name of Lisa who was the bartender. I don’t know if you remember her. And there was a woman by the name of Jaclie who was a little butch and she was also formerly in the army. She was gorgeous. Gorgeous – dark, from the Islands – I can’t remember which Island.
KM: This was before me.
FD: Maybe Jamaica? I don’t know if she was born in the United States or her parents brought her here or what. But, anyway, I don’t remember her waitressing. I remember her carrying the buckets. I think she was more of a bus boy. We didn’t have an ice machine at the front bar so we had an ice machine in the back where there was a full kitchen and they used to have to bring buckets of ice to the bar and this was one of her jobs. I took photographs of her! I was into photography at the time and I took some beautiful photographs of Jackie and my lover Barbara nude. I can send you one. They’re faceless nudes but two of them I actually copyrighted.
KM: Didn’t they also, Fran, have a brunch?
FD: Yes! Eventually Dapper decided she wanted to make more money so she opened up a Sunday brunch. So, I would work from eight o’clock at night to four o’clock in the morning and then we did a brunch at twelve o’clock in the afternoon!
GS: Oh my god. You must have been wiped out!
FD: Yes. Yes. I also worked an afterhours! I worked at an afterhours down, um...
KM: Morton Street.
FD: Yeah, it was after that at some point. It was in Brooklyn.
KM: Treasure Island?
FD: Fantasy Island!
CG: There was an after-hours place on the Lower East Side that we would go to!
FD: Chrystie’s!
CG: Chrystie’s. And that was fun!
FD: I think it was on Chrystie and Delancey!
CG: Yeah! I remember it!
FD: It was kind of decadent! Do you remember? A lot of women would go and make love to their girlfriends there! And it was like right out in the open! Do you remember? I remember that!
CG: I just remember that you went there and it was, like, after hours! Like, four in the morning! So, the sun was almost coming up.
GS: Was that a mostly lesbian party?
FD: All lesbians! There weren’t many men in that place. It was open at the same time that Dapper’s was around. And the Sahara, and Peaches...
CG: Peaches is a place that I remember going to!
FD: It was on 3rd Avenue. You could walk there from Dapper’s.
CG: It had a lot of Christmas lights and was very atmospheric – the afterhours place. By the time people got there they were really in the zone, so, you know... (Laughing)
GS: Do you have any memories of debauchery at Dapper’s? Would women hook up in the bar?
FD: Only with me! (Laughing)
Krista shakes her head and rolls her eyes.
Oh! I remember taking pictures of Krista in a booth at Dapper’s before it opened and she insisted she had clothes on. (Laughing)
KM: I had a blouse pulled down!
FD: I have a different memory of that! (Laughing)
KM: I remember the blouse! And where it was!
GS: On the floor? (Laughing)
KM: It was on me! (Laughing)
FD: It’s a really beautiful photograph.
KM: One of the things that I have to put in here is that Dapper took advantage of everybody. She watered down the liquor, she kinda screwed up Fran in her police application – can I tell this story?
FD: Yeah – I might tell it better.
KM: You tell it then. (Laughing)
FD: Ok. Dapper was complaining that she wasn’t making enough money and there weren’t enough people coming into the bar and that’s probably because she was obnoxious and she was eighty-sixing people.
KM: Yeah.
FD: She’d get pissed off at somebody and she’d yell, “You’re not allowed in the bar anymore!” You know, this kind of thing. So, there were a lot of people that she wouldn’t let into the bar. So, anyway they weren’t coming and they were probably going to the Sahara instead. So, she said, “Aw, it’s been so slow. I’m going to have to put you on the books.” Which meant that she was going to take out social security and all that stuff. It wound up that after I left Dapper’s and went into the police department for the application process I told them I worked in this bar and I was on the books and they said there wasn’t a record of me working there. Which means that she took all of that money and she pocketed it. All this money she claimed were deductions.
GS: Oh, that’s horrible.
FD: Yeah. That’s one of the reasons I’m really pissed off at Dapper. Another thing is that I watched her put water in the bottles! I mean, she’d add water! The stupid fucking bottles were like four dollars a bottle for a bottle of vodka at that time in the ‘80s and she was selling drinks for two-twenty-five each. So, if you have a shot from a four-dollar bottle for two dollars. I mean, she was making a lot of money on liquor. Adding water to it was low.
KM: I remember somebody complaining and saying, “This is not Chivas!“ So she obviously was messing with the scotch too.
FD: I don’t know about that but I saw her add water to other bottles. So...
KM: I think I was tending bar at the time. They complained to me and I didn’t know what to say! I didn’t know she was watering it down until after.
FD: The other thing she did was she opened an afterhours on the second floor. I forgot what it was called. She somehow rented the second floor and renovated it. She had a roulette table in there for gambling and liquor. And I worked that! So, here I was going from eight to four and then to the afterhours and then to the brunch! (Laughing) It didn’t last very long but there were a lot of people up there gambling. I worked it, meaning I was a waitress, or a bartender, or something up there. Do you remember that Claudia? Do you remember the afterhours?
CG: I remember it didn’t last very long but... Dapper did everything like – if you’ve ever seen Mean Streets. She just replicated the whole mentality of how you run a business and how you water down liquor and how you avoid paying taxes and you pay off the cops and blah blah blah. In that time period that’s how everything operated. This is how the city ran! The city was corrupt.
FD: I don’t remember cops coming in though.
CG: I’m just giving the general scenario. This was probably the only way she knew how to run a bar.
FD: Sure. Right!
CG: She was just a stereotype! The ‘80s started coming in and then the city was changing. Mayor Koch came in and started gentrifying and rent went up – a lot of things changed in that time period – and Dapper was really like a throwback. That’s when Sahara opened and was very popular. It was a whole different vibe. There was hanky-panky in the ladies room there. But I think it was more about drugs.
FD: I heard they lost their liquor license because of drugs.
CG: They probably didn’t pay off the cops. And that was how you ran a business then! I don’t know what it’s like now.
GS: Was the crowd different at Sahara than Dapper’s?
FD: I remember the sign – the fire hazard sign stating how many occupants Dapper’s could have – and it was like two hundred and twenty-five. Sahara was probably more like two thousand. Sahara was a huge space! It was the size of a warehouse! Dapper’s was a little storefront – like a restaurant converted into a bar.
GS: Would people come to Dapper’s and stay all night? Or maybe come for drinks and move on to Sahara? Or...
FD: Oh no, the place was always packed. The place... You couldn’t move. It literally took you quite a while to move from the front bar to the back of the place where there was a dance floor. There was a wooden dance floor, you know, the disco light, music, a phone booth... The place was packed! And she had a cover on the weekends – I can’t remember what it was. She was making money that way. I think she would offer a coupon. People came with a coupon and you could get a drink after you paid the cover. The bathrooms were downstairs. She had guards in the bathrooms downstairs, I guess, for sex and drug use. So, you know. It was a wild time! And it was interesting – there were no men barred. My brother who is gay was also in the bar when he came from California. He was ten years older than me and he was in the bar once. And we had... What’s his name...
KM: Pedro?
FD: No, the other guy. The artist. Andy Warhol! Andy Warhol was in the bar a couple of times. He came with these beautiful models. He’d go sit in a corner and he’d just stare at people. He was very odd. He was very odd. And we would also have the owner, who would come in occasionally, from, uh, from the Ice Palace. I think his name was Jay. But anyway, he owned the Ice Palace and I remember he came one day in a mink coat and he checked his coat. I think Claudia was working the booth that day...
Claudia shakes her head, no.
And when he went to get his coat at the end of the night, it wasn’t there. So, somebody stole his coat. I wouldn’t be surprised if it was Dapper! (Laughing)
CG: I think Sandra took it! Maybe, who knows! (Laughing)
KM: Was Pedro Sylvia’s brother or cousin or...
FD: Krista’s talking about the bouncer. After this incident, when I almost got my face smashed in with an ash tray, I told Dapper about it and she hired a bouncer and the bouncer was an off-duty corrections officer with a gun. He was a little Latino guy who would stand at the front. He was a cousin of Dapper’s lover.
KM: What’s funny is I remember women would come in and ask him if he was gay and he’d say, “I’m very happy!” Because they didn’t like the idea that there might be a straight guy in the bar but Doreen brought her husband in there before they were married. They’re still together. We’re still good friends. She thought he was gay when she met him [her husband]. He passed because she would put him in her clothes. They were like the same size. He looked like Al Pacino in Cruising. That was not a good character. Anyway, it turns out he is completely the opposite, so... That worked out.
GS: Were there any other incidents of homophobia or aggression at the bar?
FD: There was a fight that I remember that Barbara, my lover, and I were involved in. We didn’t initiate it but we somehow became part of it. This was before I was a bartender so I was a waitress at the time. Some huge dyke, meaning butch... A big butch... Six feet tall... She had me by the shirt and she was just about to hit me in the face and my lover jumped on her back and stopped her from hitting me. I think it was that something had happened between her and her girlfriend. Maybe somebody made a pass at her girlfriend and she was being all macho about it and this whole big brawl happened.
KM: I’m surprised Barbara didn’t get hurt because Barbara had hair down to her butt. She had very long hair. I could imagine that getting... You know! Pulled!
FD: Nobody grabbed her. She protected me, that’s for sure. But that was the only fight I remember in that place.
KM: Was she a cop already then?
FD: Oh yeah! That’s another funny thing – A whole bunch of women at that bar who either worked in it or frequented it had taken the police test and they were all waiting to be called by the police department. This woman Carol and this other woman Bobbi and Barbara and me and this woman Loretta that later on dated Barbara. We all eventually became cops! I forgot the point I was going to make...
KM: Barbara was a cop! And she wasn’t supposed to be working!
FD: Oh yeah! Barbara was hired in the first class because she got a really high grade on her test so she was hired in like October of 1979 and while she was attending the police academy she was working the back bar. (Laughing) That was, like, unheard of. If they had ever found out she would have been fired.
GS: What was the relationship like then between the police and the queer community?
FD: My only experience with the police was that horrible experience where they just came and did nothing and left us at the bar to be victimized by those homophobes. So, I wasn’t really familiar with it – I didn’t really have contact with the cops.
GS: Could you be out? When you were training?
KM: When you were a cop...
FD: Oh! I’m sorry. I don’t know if you knew but I was the main plaintiff in that lawsuit [in 1996 gay and lesbian police officers filed suit in Federal court against the NYC Police Department for unequal treatment] which is why gay cops march in uniform. That was me! Um, as I said, I got very involved with Gay Officers Action League with my former lover who was also a cop. Her name was Emma. Emma became pregnant...
Krista makes a gesture with her hands and laughs, Fran laughs.
With my help. I used to pick up the container and bring it home when we did home inseminations. Me! (Laughing) Anyway, so she got pregnant in 1990.
KM: So, you got your penis after all! (Laughing)
FD: (Laughing) So, we said: You know, we’re both closeted. We’re both closeted cops. I had gone on in 1981 and she in 1985, so we had about five years or more of being cops without being open about our sexuality. I said: We have to come out! We’re having a baby – he has to know that we’re proud of who we are and we’re proud of the fact that we’re cops and lesbians. We came out and I got more and more involved in Gay Officer’s Action League. I wound up offering to do a celebration at the police headquarters in 1994 that hadn’t been done before. It was the first celebration of Gay Pride by cops at the police headquarters. Not only did we have a celebration but we had a ceremony. We also had a display! We had artwork from Mapplethorpe and from Warhol too but we had an original Mapplethorpe on the property. I had to insure it for twenty-thousand dollars. It ended up being... What do you call it... It made world-wide notoriety! I wound up being in newspapers and in magazines and on CNN and this stuff. And when they found out that I had a child with another lesbian, then that was a big deal. So, we had the celebration in ’94. NYPD allows all the fraternal organizations to have ceremonies at headquarters on a regular basis, usually for an annual event – like Women’s History Month, African-American History Month – so, every month pretty much there was a celebration at police headquarters. So, we had the first one and it was acclaimed and I went to put in for the second one and all of the sudden the way to get permission was suddenly rerouted. We were told we would have to get permission from the mayor. At that time the mayor was Rudy Giuliani.
CG: Oh god...
FD: So, every day for like three months I was calling up Giuliani’s secretary to find out whether or not he put our ceremony in June on his calendar. And he never did. I forgot what the legal term is but we were denied without being outright denied to do it. So, what I did is for a year I collected evidence from other fraternal organizations. They had a different way of getting permission than we did – they had to write these letters and get them approved by the Commissioner of Community Affairs. For us it was a different protocol. So, I suggested to the Board of GOAL [Gay Officer’s Action League] that we sue. We sued the NYPD and Giuliani and I was the main plaintiff and I was nervous about being the only one on this lawsuit and I was a cop and they were going to retaliate and it might ruin my career. And I had about twelve years on the job or thirteen years on the job... So, I convinced another cop by the name of Edgar Rodriguez to join me. So, we both sued. We were both the main plaintiffs on this lawsuit. Because of that, the first year we marched in Gay Pride was in 1996. We filed our lawsuit in April and we were given permission to march in June. During the course of the next year we got everything else we asked for. We got the ceremony, we got the display, we got more training! Sergeants, lieutenants and above received classes on the integration of gay and lesbian personnel on the job... And now we’re banned from the parade. (Laughing)
GS: I wanted to know how you felt about that actually!
FD: Well, you know, it’s interesting because I identify as a lesbian feminist and I’m a woman and that’s part of my identity too. The cop thing was never part of my identity. The cop thing was a career and a job and I’m almost retired twenty years. Twenty years next month I’ll be retired. For a lot of other people, a lot of other cops, that uniform is so important to them... When I spoke to the President of GOAL – we had a meeting, all of the people who were part of this lawsuit, kind of the...
KM: The old guard!
FD: The old guard. We spoke to the new guard. We spoke to the Board and we said: Listen, it’s more important for us to be accepted by the community and for us to not further traumatize the community by our uniforms and I think it’s more to be a part of the community to be in a GOAL tee shirt than to traumatize them further by being in uniform. Unfortunately the new guard really has a thing about wearing their uniforms so they’re not giving up on it. So, that’s where that is and that’s where I am with it. But it was nice to be asked what I thought! (Laughing) We also went down to Puerto Rico in 1995 and had the first Gay and Lesbian Police Conference. The cops were following us around and actually raided a nightclub that we were in. I had just left with my lover and they came with flak jackets and machine guns to check the licenses of the bar that we were having our party at. Yeah. So, it was definitely a show of intimidation. It was the day after my lover was on like a Phil Donahue-type show in Puerto Rico – I don’t know who the guy’s name is – and she was on television because she spoke fluent Spanish and she was on with another cop... (Laughing) Krista really hates her! She’s justified in this sentiment but that’s another story... (Laughing) So, she’s on TV and called out the president of the police union in Puerto Rico because he said, “Gay cops don’t belong on jobs. They’re not qualified to be police officers.” And she said, “How about you versus me fatso! Let’s go out to the corner! Let’s see who wins!” (Laughing) He was a big guy. So, anyway. This happened the day after. After that Gay Officer’s Action League sued the Puerto Rican police department and it wound up that because of that law suit Puerto Rico hired for the first time gay and lesbian cops. That suit was started by GOAL and it was picked up by that legal defense fund... Lambda. Lambda took care of that lawsuit. That was another major thing.
KM: Do you wanna hear stuff other than Dapper’s? Or do you wanna hear more stories? Like why I’m giving the horns to her ex?
GS: Totally! Anything you want to share with me is awesome. I’d also love to hear favorite memories from Dapper’s from all of you!
KM: My favorite memory was...
FD: What?
KM: Meeting you!
FD: Thank you. I remember meeting her too. She was stunning. She had on fishnet gloves.
KM: I was very punked out. Me and my girlfriend who I’m still friends with.
FD: I should get that photograph I took of you to show her.
KM: Go ahead! Keep in mind Brooke is worried about the sushi restaurant closing before we get our lunch.
GS: If any of you have any photos or images from Dapper’s that you’d like to share...
KM: Fran probably has more than I do. I have one of my ex-girlfriend Doreen who is the one who brought her future husband into the bar. Compared to now she looks very plain... I have a picture of us going out one night and it was hysterical.
This photo was taken in March 1980 at Dapper's. Doreen was a waitress at Dapper's and is in the center. Obviously, this was after Dapper abandoned the white blouse, black tie and excruciating 4 inch heel uniform for bartenders and waitresses. Doreen and my wife Krista have known each other since they were 12. The woman on the right was very young, 18 when she worked in the bar. She would clean up spilled drinks and carry ice buckets from the back kitchen to the back and front bars. I think her name was Debbie. The woman on the left was a patron. I don't remember her name.
FD: This is the photograph I took of her in the booth! It’s dated – on the back it says 12/79. She’s stunning. So, what happened was that I was with this woman Emma for fourteen years and I had met her through another friend who was also a cop. They were childhood buddies. We had a monogamous relationship. I became a cop in ’81 and was already a cop when I met her in ’84 and then she became a cop a year later. For some reason we started to break up in like 1997. I had just become the Executive Director of GOAL. I was very involved with GOAL. She wasn’t so much because she had a little boy born in 1990 so she was taking care of him and I was taking care of the cops and the family. I think the problem was that she was probably cheating with this other woman although she wouldn’t admit it. She was hardly ever home and Alex disappeared and was hardly ever home. He was over at somebody else’s house. So, I was coming home to an empty house and I was upset about it. I had had the opportunity in 1993 I think it was, when they finally passed same-sex adoption in New York... At the time in 1993 the price for an attorney to do the adoption was like five thousand dollars which was a fortune. I think I made fourteen thousand. So, it was like one third of my salary. I can’t remember... But anyway, it was a lot of money. I thought: Eh, I don’t have to worry about this! Because one of the things Emma was always upset about was this other couple we knew where the non-biological mother was forbidden to see the child. We thought how horrible that was! That was like the worst thing you could ever do to someone. Of course I never thought my lover would do that to me. Unfortunately that’s what she did. So, when we broke up in 1998 I had an attorney so I could get visitation and she refused to give me visitation. She refused to do adoption and she pretty much alienated him from me and to this day he doesn’t have a memory of me. Meanwhile I was in his life until he was seven and a half, almost eight years old. He says he doesn’t remember me at all.
KM: He was so traumatized. She was crazy. I just want to show you the other side of picture.
Krista holds up a photograph of Fran from when she was younger.
FD: That’s me! That’s me at nineteen!
GS: Wow! That’s a stunning photograph!
FD: That’s when I came out!
GS: If you can scan and send me those photos to include that would be wonderful and Claudia if you have any photos of yourself from that time!
CG: There is one picture somebody took of me at Dapper’s.
FD: Were you wearing a beret?
CG: No... I owned a suit. A really fancy suit. And that was my suit look. My hair was short. I remember people were confused because they didn’t understand that women could have short hair but not be butch! They were like, “We don’t get it!” They were really old school and I remember talking about it with you Fran. They didn’t get it. Butch/femme women were at all the bars really and then the next generation – us, I guess – we just had a whole different mindset. We didn’t grow up with that idea that if you were a gay woman you had to be either like a guy or ultra femme. We didn’t wear girdles and prom dresses! (Laughing) Our hair wasn’t done up. There was a woman who used to come in – I liked her, she was very nice…
FD: Are you talking about Betty White?
CG: Yes! Betty White! Right. How could I forget her name.
FD: She’s probably our age now! Or older.
CG: I remember her very vividly. She was really very nice. She wasn’t...
FD: Crude?
CG: Exactly.
FD: She really had a thing for you!
All laugh.
CG: Right! And she couldn’t figure me out because I was wearing basically a pantsuit and my hair was short so I think it just threw her! How could a butch be attracted to a typical feminine whatever! Remember, we had the revolution! We’ve come a long way baby!
FD: I agree! We were very androgynous!
CG: Yeah! It was the seventies! Women went to work... There was no such thing as this stereotypical ‘50s housewife thing. Prior to that, you know, was the hippy revolution and the sexual revolution... All of this happened.
KM: If you worked down on Wall Street you wore a skirt. You did not wear slacks.
FD: Krista was an administrative assistant. A legal secretary.
CG: Well, I don’t know. I had various low-level jobs and what I wore was never a problem. But, yeah! I remember that corporate thing. I was like an office temp and a few times I got sent to the World Trade Center for some company but they didn’t care what I wore.
KM: Our niece works in Washington D.C. and she is still required to wear a skirt. And when I worked in the DA’s Office in Suffolk County, the ADAs, when they went into the courtroom, they had to have a skirt on! This is in... What? I’m losing my decades... From ’93 to... Oh boy. Whenever it was! Six years. That’s all I know. ’83 to ’89 that’s what it was. I moved to San Francisco after that.
GS: Do you feel like, for all three of you, being queer or lesbian enabled you some more freedom and play with your identity presentation?
KM: I’d go back and forth! I’d be in heels with makeup but I’d also wear combat boots and jeans! I dressed how I felt that day, or whatever.
FD: I wore a uniform pretty much all the time. A man’s uniform. I did a lot of waitressing because it was good money and a lot of it was off the books and some of the restaurants you had to wear a skirt. There was a uniform. The only other uniform I ever wore.
KM: I was in the air force, so I wore a uniform.
CG: I was twenty-whatever! I was young.
FD: So was I! FD: Yeah, she was in the air force when she was a baby! She was like seventeen. She had to get her parents to sign her in. She’s actually a... What is it?
KM: A Vietnam Era Veteran. I loved my uniform. I worked on a flight line and I loved it. It was all cotton. The fatigues they wear. The green olive drab fatigues. They were cotton and I wore a white tee shirt under it! I couldn’t be more comfortable. If you’re working on the plane you could take the over shirt off and be one of the guys, so to speak. That was before I was out or knew I needed to be out. I always hung out with the gay men. I didn’t realize it at the time.
FD: My first boyfriend was a gay man and I didn’t know it either!
GS: You were helping each other out!
FD: I guess! We were beards for each other!
GS: Claudia do you have a favorite memory from Dapper’s?
CG: Um, hmmm. I guess it was really the feeling that you were an outlaw. You went there and it was like this closed society but you felt like you were protected because once you walked through those doors you were accepted. I think that’s what it was. If you showed up you were accepted. You walked in, you didn’t get questioned or looked at like, “Hmmm...” It was like, “Oh you showed up!” Lesbian bars now, I don’t know what they’re like plus they hardly exist anymore. I think that was the general feeling. People welcomed you. And then, if you’re ever in any place with a group of people, everyone gets to know each other a little too much. Familiarity breeds contempt. It’s like any group or community. I just want to mention that I came out of art school so you weren’t supposed to dress up or look like you had money because when I was in school you had to look like a grungy artist or a starving artist. But then you had punk and new wave and all that stuff happening. As far as working there was never really a dress code. I started to work in the Metropolitan Museum of Art in the book store and I wore nice clothes. I used to make my clothes. Somebody took me aside and told me I didn’t have to dress up to come there. She was just another person working there. I looked at her like: What do you care what I’m wearing? Like somehow I had violated their internal dress code. I used to make my own wrap skirts... You know, it was the style! We got paid lower than minimum wage... Anyway, it was really strange. People who are in the arts are really defensive and want to control everyone. At Dapper’s it was different. Everybody was there because you wanted to be there. You really felt empowered! Like some kind of radical... You were a societal outlaw... Or something like that. Plus we were young! We were having a good time.
GS: It’s amazing that the three of you have stayed in touch for so many years! It’s really lovely to see.
CG: Friendships you make in your younger years can last – whether it’s elementary or Junior high-school – and then later on work relationships sometimes... But I think that’s why we all stayed connected! Because we were young and it was all very exciting. There was this sense of being on an adventure and being on the outskirt. And then if you went into the Village – Greenwich Village – that was a whole world there! Everybody was there for that reason. We’d go to bars there. I think you mentioned the Ice Palace on 57th Street? That was wild! And if you were a woman nobody looked at you, like, “Why are you here?” It wasn’t like, “This is only for men!” Everybody was high.
FD: The Lib was like that too. The place I mentioned in the ‘30s. It was very accepting of both me and women.
KM: But the Ice Palace was almost like a Studio 54 with the décor and size and... I’ve never been to Studio 54...
FD: I have!
KM: But I know that it was lit! It was decorated! It was a big deal.
FD: I was at Studio 54! I worked Bella Abzug’s mayoral and she threw a birthday party there. I was her Brooklyn office manager. She was incredible. I loved her. What a wonderful woman. The last time I saw her she was doing a presentation in her late nineties. She looked very frail. I think she was very sick at the time. Sweet woman.
GS: Claudia, was the rest of your career in the arts?
CG: Yeah! I was an art teacher in the public schools for thirty years! But getting back to the disco theme – I think I went to a disco out in Brooklyn...
FD: Rhythms?
CG: I forget what it was called! This was before they made the movie Saturday Night Fever. (Laughing)
FD: Oh! The one at that club! Space Odyssey? On 8th Avenue in Bay Ridge? It was in my old neighborhood.
CG: Yeah, with all the lights! But I think everybody... It didn’t matter where you went out. There was just a feeling of hedonism and freedom.
FD: You’re talking about the floor with the lights? That was Space Odyssey.
CG: Yeah! And I went out a lot! I had a lot of fun in my twenties.
GS: Did any of you ever have sex on the dance floor? (Laughing)
FD: Not on the dance floor! But it’s never too late! (Laughing)
CG: Bathrooms are good because you can close the door and have a little privacy.
FD: I had sex in the Duchess bathroom. Gross right? (Laughing)
CG: Everybody is like, “Hello? Are you done? We’re waiting in line!” (Laughing) I would talk to people on the line since we were all standing there involuntarily anyhow. It was just a fun time. And at that time in my life. I had completed graduate school and it was like: Ok! Time to party.
FD: It was funny too because Dapper’s had curtains! The back area had booths on one side with curtains! She had to have them specially made so they wouldn’t be a fire hazard or something but you could pull the curtains closed. I don’t remember ever finding anyone doing anything behind them...
GS: I’m sure a lot happened behind those curtains! (Laughing)
KM: I see a kitty cat!
GS: Yeah, that’s Lucas – he wants to participate.
FD: Just so you know Claudia I think the only bar that’s left is the Cubbyhole!
GS: And Henrietta Hudson...
FD: That’s the one on Hudson Street?
GS: Yeah. And there’s Ginger’s in Brooklyn but I’m not sure if they’re reopening after the pandemic.
FD: I don’t think I’ve ever been there. I was at a place called Rhythms in Brooklyn [1513 New Utrecht Avenue in Bensonhurst]. It was underneath the L train. Rhythms. That was in the ‘70s and it was still around in ’84 because I remember making out on the dance floor with Emma. (Laughing)
KM: I was friends with Fran and Emma! I liked Emma until she became a witch. She probably always had the potential but you know... It came out. So...
CG: I remember when Fran and Emma met. I was there.
FD: Really?
CG: Yeah!
FD: Really? We met in a racket ball court!
CG: Maybe you were just starting your...
FD: Relationship with her?
CG: Your flirtation!
FD: Where was this? I don’t remember where we were. Maybe we were out at a club or some place. I don’t know. But I do remember that.
FD: Hm! Interesting.
GS: Krista, you mentioned you were friends with Fran and Emma before you two got together?
KM: Well, Fran and I dated for like...
FD: A minute. When I took this portrait it was a minute! (Laughing)
GS: A sexy minute!
KM: She scared me. She was a little... Anyway, I went on my own way but we always stayed friends. I would always call her because she’s not good at that. I was friends with her through the rest of it – Barbara, Emma... And Alex. I was at Alex’s birthday party and things like that and you know, we got along! She was funny! I got along with her! I liked her enough. And then things started to go south in ’96, right?
FD: ’97.
KM: ’97. And then in ’98 she called me and she wanted me to help her move out because Emma had taken a vacation with her “new person” so, um... So, that’s when we got together, together. In ’98. Almost twenty-three years! We got married in ’09.
FD: And we have a fifteen-year-old daughter together that I had at fifty-two!
KM: She gave birth at fifty-two!
GS: Wow!
KM: When Fran is determined... Don’t stand in her way.
FD: After three miscarriages I finally had one that stuck! And she’s a lesbian! That’s really what’s freaky!
GS: (Laughing) Oh good!
KM: Brooke... Yeah! We named her Martha but she couldn’t relate.
FD: She said, “It’s too biblical for me.” (Laughing)
KM: I said: You know Brooke, it’s really unusual for the child of two gay people to be gay. And she goes, “I’m special!”
GS: Aw. That’s so cute!
KM: She’s very... She’s so bright it’s frightening.
Fran holds up a photograph of her on her phone.
GS: Aw, she’s so beautiful!
FD: She’ll be sixteen in November.
KM: She’s already ready for her license and she wants to go to work! In Manhattan!
FD: My friend who’s an attorney offered her a job.
GS: I wonder what kind of parties she’ll be going to one day! We’ll find out! (Laughing)
KM: Yeah... (Smiling) She’s not that social.
FD: She’s been going to the LGBTQ network that’s out on Long Island.
GS: Well, it’s been an hour and a half or so and I don’t want to keep you if you have other things going on which I’m sure you do! But if there are any last memories you’d like to share before we close this up!
KM: Do you want me to leave the room?
FD: No! Don’t be silly! Favorite memories? Not really! I mean, I really loved the place! I felt like a star behind that bar. It was really great! It was great for my ego! I taught Krista how to make drinks!
KM: Somebody stole my Mr. Boston book! FD: You know the other thing was, Michele Balan used to perform! So did I! I’d sing along with records over the microphone. I had a great time. Yeah, it was great! I used to sing in La Femme too. Is La Femme on your list?
GS: Yes! And actually I’d love to hear more about that place. I don’t have much information about it.
FD: Yeah, I went there with Barbara a lot. It was close to Bonnie and Clyde’s. It was a smaller place.
CG: There were so many places. I recently came across an old listing of bars and clubs. I think I saved it because I was trying to remember where this one or that one was. There were so many! There were really a lot. I think it’s because at that time people were... There was just a lot of socializing and the sexual revolution and the everything revolution. People were really enjoying themselves.
FD: And it was the only way to meet people. There was no internet. There was nothing other than the bars. Or the community center.
CG: There were tons of men’s bars and now everyone just goes on an app and meets up somewhere.
FD: The men’s bars were a lot different! My brother went to the Mineshaft and what was the name of the other one?
KM: The Anvil.
FD: They were real sex clubs. They were unbelievable. Some of the stuff he came home with...
CG: Some people have asked me if that’s how lesbian bars were and I’m like: No! What do you think? Our spaces were different.
FD: They had vats! My brother said they had a vat with urine and a vat with feces. And he said he knew he was in trouble when the guy in front of him checked his pants. (Laughing)
GS: Wow. That’s something I’m not sure I can get behind...
KM: Literally! (Laughing)
CG: Women are really differently wired. Which is not a judgement. I think it’s just biology.
FD: I knew a lot of promiscuous women back then!
Krista points to Fran and Claudia claps.
Promiscuity was not a big deal! It was the sexual revolution and we were all a part of that! Unfortunately then there was AIDS but it didn’t affect the lesbian community as much except to watch our dear male friends, you know, pass away! I lost a couple of friends from AIDS. It was very sad. My brother lost quite a few lovers. But the ‘70s were pre-AIDS and it was wild.
GS: I think my generation has a lot of longing for a taste of what it was like then! I think in a lot of ways social media and dating apps have changed things and killed some of the spontaneous eroticism that used to happen in bars and clubs. We definitely don’t have as many spaces as your generation did and it’s part of the reason why I love having these conversations! It’s fun to get a taste of it! Not like we don’t have fun though... (Laughing)
KM: It was fun! It was a fun time! We were young and it was fun because of the time it was!
CG: And you didn’t need a lot of money! Honestly!
FD: It’s true!
CG: You have to factor in that everyone got priced out of things. You’d have to, I don’t know, have a trust fund to stay put...
FD: Sure! You could go out with a twenty-dollar bill and have a great night.
CG: I’d budget two drinks and cab fare and it was probably ten dollars!
GS: Oh man... Now one cocktail is like sixteen bucks.
CG: Exactly.
KM: Wow.
CG: So, I’d get two white Russians and that would do me. Other people would keep drinking and I’d say: Well, I don’t know about you but I don’t want to be on the floor. So, you know, I didn’t have to have six drinks. So, I’d have that and then make sure I could get home. Did I ever tell you? I lived in the East Village so I would take a cab home down 2nd Avenue and I would go to a deli and get a roast beef sandwich because I was starving and one cab driver was being really weird so I said something like:... My husband... And he looked at me like, “Yeah right!” He probably read me as whatever but just because I was a woman on my own at four in the morning in a taxi! You got this false sense of security because you were in this friendly, happy, women’s space and then you walked out and you had to rejoin the real world. I got home alright but oh my god... Everyone would say, “Oh my god you live in the East Village? It’s so dangerous!” It was more dangerous to be in a taxi! (Laughing) When I came home in the middle of the night or the early morning everybody would be walking around all insane but at least there were people on the street! I felt very safe. They were all crazy and nuts and wild but they’re not going to bother anyone. You just blend in. But you still had to remember that the world can be very hostile especially to any woman on her own. I mean, when you get past a certain age nobody even notices you. I’ll tell you what age that was, thirty-eight. It was like: Now I can do anything! No one’s going to bother me! I mean seriously it was very strange suddenly I became a non-entity. I was like: Oh goody! Nobody's going to follow me down the street. You still had to be very on your toes as a woman.
FD: I had more problems walking from the train to 12th Avenue and 42nd Street when I worked for UPS! I was a truck driver for a short time in 1976 – one of two women that delivered packages. I remember it was a very high prostitute area. I remember getting catcalled and having men try to pick me up. That was frightening.
KM: You know I’ve watched footage of New York City in the ‘70s and it's horrific! Like, I didn’t know it was that bad! I lived on the Upper East Side and I worked in midtown so I never saw the horrible... You know!
FD: The Time Square area was pretty seedy.
KM: The ‘70s apparently were horrible in New York City! Certainly in Manhattan!
CG: That show that was on HBO called The Deuce was great!
FD: Very reminiscent!
CG: The glitter and the filth! I was born in the Bronx and never left the city! I went to college in Manhattan and I have a younger sister and we just figured this is it! This is how it is! Versus someone from anywhere else might think, oh my god – who lives like this! There was no thought of leaving or escaping! It was like I’m not going to leave! I’m from here! The city went into a horrible financial crisis and there was graffiti all inside the trains and everybody now is like, aww... But it was really gross! But we just dealt with it. Unless you picked yourself up and said, I’m moving to Ohio or I don’t know anyplace else! Nothing against Ohio... But, the city was tough and rough but you got through it. I mean, I went to high-school, college and graduate school all through the ‘70s and there was all this other fun stuff as well, you know, but you didn’t think about it! You didn’t realize! There’s that whole story about the frog in the water who doesn’t realize it’s getting boiled alive, right? (Laughing) But we just lived here and you got on the subway and you prayed you got to your destination and you hoped there were a minimum of creepy guys who were going to catcall you or say gross things to you in the subway... We just lived with it. We weren’t princesses and snowflakes, we were like, whatever!
FD: It never stopped me from doing anything.
KM: In the ‘80s I would wear all black, combat boots and I would put my keys in between my fingers and keep them in my pocket. And black leather gloves with no fingers. And once this guy... I was leaving the subway going up the stairs and this guy put his hand on my shoulder and I turned around with my keys in my fist and he said, “Ah! Krista! I used to work with you! Don’t you remember me?” (Laughing)
FD: Talking about that, I remember when I was dating her in whatever it was... 1980, 1979... Probably ’80... I remember walking with her in the street and she used to stop traffic! She had a breast reduction but she had an “I” cup chest! People used to stop and gawk.
KM: And I wasn’t heavy then.
FD: I was like: Oh my god! I can’t believe the cars are stopping to look at her...
KM: It was horrible.
FD: And she had this beautiful face with this “I” chest...
KM: They took five pounds off of each breast. It was horrible.
GS: Wow, that’s literally a burden to bear.
KM: The attention, the shoulder pain... It was like an appendage I needed to get rid of.
FD: She’s got a great story. She was walking along in Manhattan and she walked passed two guys...
KM: No, it was in the Pan Am building. I was attending Katharine Gibbs and there was a little jazz group playing near the railing and all the girls were going back after lunch and I heard the guy say something about my chest as I walked passed and I had a cone of frozen yogurt and I turned around and I hit the guy right in the forehead and he looked at me and he goes, “He said it!” Pointing to someone else next to him. (Laughing)
GS: (Laughing) Oh no! Well, that will teach both of them not to make comments!
KM: Right? I hope so!
GS: That’s badass. Good for you!
CG: Things started to change in the ‘80s and into the ‘90s but for a female anywhere in the world it's hard. I went to Italy with my family maybe when I was fifteen and oh my god... I was fifteen and my sister was twelve and we were sitting somewhere and the waiter waves at me and my sister says something to him... Probably a little Neapolitan vernacular because my grandfather was from Naples... And she said something to him and he was mortified. She said basically like fuck off or something like that. He couldn’t believe it! I think she was only twelve. We were like who the hell are you! Leave us alone! We were sitting there with our parents. I couldn’t believe men could act this way. Any in New York City we had similar things. You get on the train and you’re a kid in Junior high or high-school... You had to like put on armor. I had a friend who had really long hair and she used to wrap it up because men would come over to her and ask to touch her hair! She had very thick, wavy, gorgeous hair. If you think about it now we’re probably all still traumatized by all of this!
GS: That’s what made places like Dapper’s such a haven!
CG: That you could go somewhere and not be around creeps! I used to have a second sense, I knew when a guy was about to pull his dick out to show me in broad day light! All they wanted from you was the shock. I have nothing against male appendages – technically I’m bisexual if you want to go by my track record...
KM: Me too! (Laughing)
CG: But it’s sort of like, aw man. I’m just walking down the street minding my own business. I didn’t wear provocative clothing.
KM: Claudia when did you leave St. Marks Place?
CG: Oh! Well, I lived there for over forty-three years and then I got to a point of I had really had it...
FD: You weren’t going to get an elevator so it was time to go!
CG: Also I had to get my left hip replaced which I did after I moved because I was crippled! I couldn’t... I lived on the sixth floor and at some point as you’re getting slower and everyone is running up the stairs passed you, you’re like: I gotta go! My hip was totally destroyed! Once you get a new hip you’re bionic.
GS: Where do you live now Claudia?
CG: I live in White Plains, Westchester in a nice apartment! And yes, there’s an elevator and a garage and a laundry room! I moved to the burbs! But it’s still the city, it’s not the middle of nowhere.
FD: That was a great apartment though. That was a big apartment!
CG: It was, but it was also full of some forty odd years of stuff. The final straw were the mice which the landlord totally refused to deal with. I was like: No. I gotta go now. I didn’t need to look at the mouse writhing on the glue trap.
FD: Im sure they were happy you left so they could jack up the rent.
CG: Yeah, they made it into three bedrooms and charge like four thousand dollars a month or something. I was ready to just get the hell outta there. I also found that things change! The neighborhood had been changing over many years and everybody is just a young person looking at their phone. You walk outside and you’re like: Hello! There are other people in the world! Pay attention! It was strange. I mean... But I’d been there so long.
GS: Yeah! You must have seen so many shifts in that area.
CG: Yeah. I was also involved with the W.O.W. Café which is a theater. I did a lot of stuff there. Mostly tech and other stuff... (Laughing) Fran is opening the pickle jar!
Fran opens a jar of pickles and hands it to her daughter.
FD: My baby wants pickles.
CG: So, that became a community for me there. It also created a great outlet. It wasn’t so much a social thing but it was another group of people who knew each other and I’m still very connected with those folks but people moved on! They dispersed. So...
GS: That was such an important community! It’s still around isn’t it?
FD: I saw you in a play there! I can’t remember the name of the play though. It was something like Grimm’s Fairy Tale. Was it Cinderella or something?
CG: Cinderella: The Real True Story? I wasn’t in that but I think I ran lights! I used to do light design and run them!
FD: Oh ok but I think I did go when you were involved! I remember who I was with at the time! (Laughing)
CG: Do we want to know? (Laughing)
FD: No, we don’t care. (Laughing)
KM: What year Claudia? I want to know!
CG: I was involved with them between ’86 and ’91. FD: Had to be Emma then.
KM: Yeah it was Emma.
CG: Probably yeah. I’m still connected with the women and friends I knew there. It’s a very strong bond there. Everything they did there was so brilliant. I’d go and I’d be amazed at the creativity and humor and everything else. And the talent. If you walked in and you wanted to get involved they’d say, “Good! You want to do this?” They didn’t ask for your resume, they didn’t care. It kept me from atrophying creatively because I worked! I had a teaching job.
FD: They also had a place called the Women’s Coffee House! Do you remember the Women’s Coffee House? That was the first time I saw Alix Dobkin who just passed away.
GS: What was that?
FD: It was a little hole in the wall coffee house. They served coffee and cake and they also had live entertainment. Alix Dobkin is a lesbian feminist singer/songwriter and she performed there in the early ‘70s. She had a couple of LPs that she made. She just passed away. In fact I invited her to sing at the first celebration at the police headquarters in ’94. She came and sang a song that was a little risqué and I got a lot of flack from some of the gay cops who were like, “What did you do that you had her sing this song!” It was all grownups there. Big deal. Something about fingers in dykes... (Laughing)
CG: A lot of unions tend to be on the more conservative side. I mean I’m a teacher and there’s a certain conservative thread. If you’re a little bit out there everybody’s a little, woo!
FD: I am so not like a police officer.
KM: Her son is a cop now.
FD: My son joined the force in ’16 and he’s a registered republican. You know I haven’t influenced him in many years... (Laughing)
GS: Oh yikes. Yikes! Where was the Women’s Coffee Shop? Or Coffee House?
FD: I think it was on 6th Avenue. Avenue of the Americas? I remember you had to go through a little gate and it was like in... What do you call it, when it’s like the same floor... And you go up or down stairs...
KM: Split level.
FD: Thank you! That’s why I keep her around.
KM: Was it Café W,O.W.?
FD: The Coffee House was in the West Village in the early ‘70s.
KM: It sounds like the Figaro!
FD: What I was talking about?
KM: I know it’s not the Figaro but it was a small coffee house that served coffee and cake.
FD: Was this on the west side of the street? Because this was on the west side of the street on Avenue of the Americas.
CG: Figaro I think it is on Bleecker Street.
KM: Yeah! You’re right!
CG: Because I went there! That was a great place to go on a date! The person... The girl I was with while I was at Dapper’s was not connected with Dapper’s, but we once went there and they had a hot apple pie thing. So, she’s eating it and she pulls out a rubber band. (Laughing)
GS: Oh god! (Laughing)
CG: We were just laughing!
FD: I don’t get it!
KM: It was in the pie!
FD: Oh! (Laughing)
CG: We were just like, “Oh well!” I guess it can’t kill you! You know! There were so many great places to go and hang out and have dates. After the afterhours there was a great place to go and get omelets in the Village... I forget what it was called.
FD: We used to go to that luncheonette!
CG: It was a restaurant with a bar but they had really good food! It was...
FD: It was open twenty-four hours also!
CG: It was a lot of that! When I think back on it I’m like: I had a lot of fun! And you didn’t have to be rolling in dough! You could go out on a shoe string and still have fun! I had a real feeling of I could do anything. I didn’t live with my parents, I was on my own! Nobody told me what to do. I didn’t have a husband or a boyfriend to tell me, “You can’t do that!” I think back a lot to when I was a college student and oh my god the rampant sexism among my professors and peers etcetera and then later in work places... Where you were just treated like you were a child. I hope it’s different now for women.
GS: To some extent! There’s still sexism everywhere!
CG: I think back on a lot of things and I guess I should have been angrier but at the time you didn’t really realize: Wait, why are you saying that to me? Even relatives, you know?
KM: I was a little numb to it.
CG: Yeah! My mom had a college degree and she didn’t raise me to be a doormat. It wasn’t like, “Get married and have kids!” But the rest of the world was treating you like you were a dummy! I think about it now and I’m like: Man! Where did they get the nerve? Even our peers! Not so much like they’re older and they know better, there was just this assumption that they could say anything to you. And I don’t like it when I see women replicating that kind of behavior.
GS: Yeah, that can happen in lesbian relationships! Misogyny comes through in all kinds of ways!
CG: It’s really hard to not fall into those things, those patterns. In any kind of dynamic. I read all the lesbian books! I read all the literature. I was very well read. There was so much great theory out there but then theory and reality are two different things.
FD: We’ll need another session like this because I have to get my daughter Japanese food!
GS: I cannot thank you all enough for this! We can continue this conversation! I would love to hear more about La Femme and all of these other places. I’m just so grateful to you all for your time today!
Watch Fran speaking through the Generation Project here.
