Lisa Menichino
Lisa Menichino is the owner of Cubbyhole, a queer and lesbian bar in New York City. The following conversation was recorded on April 15, 2022 at 11:30am by phone from Brooklyn, NY to Cubbyhole.
Gwen Shockey: The first question I’d love to ask you Lisa is whether you can remember the first place you ever were that was predominantly queer or lesbian – it could be a bar or a community center or…
Lisa Menichino: Um, yes! That’s a funny story! I was about twenty, twenty-one and it was... I can’t remember the name… It was Pandora’s Box or the Duchess. It was a bar right where the Starbucks is on 7th Avenue and Sheridan Square there.
GS: Maybe the Duchess?
Image courtesy of Lisa Menichino.
Image courtesy of Lisa Menichino.
LM: Yeah, maybe the Duchess, right? So, I remember it being very dark and I think I went down a couple of steps and it was really dark and it was my first time ever at anything queer or gay. And, um, I was like really shy and kind of really geeky. Argyle sweaters were in style then so I’d always match Argyle sweaters with my socks! (Laughing)
GS: Oh my god that’s so cute!
LM: I looked like such a dork! I just stood there sipping my drink by the jukebox trying to look as inconspicuous as possible and, you know, I grew up in a very conservative Italian Catholic neighborhood in Brooklyn. My family was very open and accepting of me but the neighborhood around was very conservative and Catholic. So, I noticed someone at the bar – like a really, really big woman who had a mohawk. She was wearing one of those tank top tee shirts, you know, they used to call them the politically incorrect wife-beater. And she had let the hair grow on her armpits but it was the tattoo that fascinated me. She had one woman’s leg going up her forearm and the woman’s other leg going, like, up her ribcage so right in the middle was her hairy armpit – can you picture this? (Laughing) And you know, that’s not something you see in conservative Catholic neighborhoods! I mean, we had our gangsters who had, like, “mom” tattooed but I never saw that before. (Laughing) So, I was look at it and I guess she thought… You know, that maybe I was trying to flirt with her. So, she comes over and – you know, I’m not very tall and she had to be over six feet – and, um, she looks down at me and goes, “I wanna dance wit you.” And it wasn’t a request. (Laughing) So, she puts on this weird, like, 1950s kind of hop song… Like, da, da, da, da… And she literally lifts me off my feet and starts swinging me this way and that way and this way and that way and then the song ends – thank god – and she puts me down and says, “Thank you very much.” (Laughing) And we never said another word to each other. And that was my first queer experience! (Laughing)
GS: (Laughing) That is so funny! Oh my god! How did you feel in that moment when she put you back down and left you there?
LM: I was grateful! I was unharmed, you know! (Laughing) I mean, she seemed very nice! She was very polite. It was just funny. And then, you know, when I thought about it later on it was just very funny and I laughed about it. I still laugh about it. (Chuckling)
GS: Yeah, that’s maybe one of the best first queer experience stories ever.
LM: And the tattoo! Oh my god… I was just like, “Wow!” (Laughing) It’s the type of thing you see stereotypically maybe on truck drivers, you know?
GS: I hope someone photographed that at some point in her life.
LM: I think I’ve seen it online but I’ve never seen it in person with anyone before.
GS: Wow. What a story! And you said you were in your twenties?
LM: I must have been about twenty-one.
GS: How did you find the Duchess or hear about it?
LM: Well, my mom’s sister – my aunt – is gay. She came out in the late ‘60s, early ‘70s. So, she was sort of my guide of where to go and what to do. (Chuckling)
GS: Wow, ok! That’s so great that you had a role model in your family to help you come out.
LM: Yes! Absolutely! I mean, I’ve been very lucky with my family. They accepted my aunt – even before it was cool in the early ‘70s and she was, like, right out there. Even if they didn’t necessarily agree with her lifestyle at the time, they always looked at it like, you’re still family and they still loved you and that was it. You know? So, we were both very lucky that way.
GS: What area of Brooklyn did you grow up in?
LM: Bensonhurst.
GS: Awesome! Did you continue going to lesbian bars after that first experience?
Image courtesy of Lisa Menichino.
LM: Yes! I started going to, um… You know, I met a couple of friends from college and we went to Henrietta’s, which was called the Cubby Hole at the time. It was just in the process of changing. So, we went there. And then when Fat Cat’s opened, we went there a couple of times. Fat Cat’s was more like a piano bar. It was a little bit… You know, we were young and it was a little sophisticated for us. But Fat Cat’s turned into the Cubbyhole. Elaine Romagnoli ran the Cubby Hole that’s now Henrietta’s and then I believe she lent the name to Tanya [Saunders] when Tanya’s partnership with Debbie broke up and Fat Cat changed to Cubbyhole because Lisa [Cannistraci] was part owner of Cubby Hole and changed the name to Henrietta’s. So, the name [Cubbyhole] was still available when Tanya changed Fat Cat to Cubbyhole and she bought the name from Elaine. If that makes sense. I know it’s a little convoluted. (Laughing)
GS: That makes sense! So, you’re in your twenties and you’re sort of in the scene - was most of your community in the lesbian bars?
LM: Yeah! I mean, I had a lot of gay male friends! It was a difficult time for gay males… AIDS came when I was really too young to be involved. But it was still going on in the early ‘90s when I first came out. I had a lot of gay male friends so I would go to gay male bars too and they would come with me to Henrietta’s and then Cubbyhole. So, it was kind of all over. And then they used to have, like they do now, these one-night parties at different places and you could go there.
GS: Was it hard to be a woman then going into gay male spaces?
LM: Some of them! But it depended what kind they were. Most of them were fine. There were some that were a little older… I don’t want to name anyone but some were a little bit older and they didn’t particularly like it. You didn’t really feel welcome there but the newer ones, they were really cool about it. Some of them still had the back-room sex clubs going on. I was shocked because AIDS was still prevalent but they didn’t really welcome you either. But for the most part your average gay… I’m trying to think where we used to go… Not the Monster… Like Boots and Saddles, which was a really raunchy kind of place, they had no issue. Ramrods, they had no issue. The little, small bars on Christopher Street, no problem.
GS: I’m assuming you lost some of your community even in the ‘90s due to AIDS – were you involved in activism around AIDS?
LM: I was to a certain extent. I was more involved with a suicide crisis hotline. It wasn’t just suicide, it was a crisis line in general. So, people would call. I had majored in sociology in college and I was working in family court and the plan was to get my MSW. So, I volunteered at The Center… I think so… Wait, actually I don’t want to give you wrong information… I volunteered somewhere and there was this lovely gay man who trained us all and we got on the phones and it was a gay crisis line. People would call with different things and a lot of it had to do with having AIDS and feeling suicidal. Things like that. I volunteered for that.
Image courtesy of Lisa Menichino.
GS: That’s amazing! Why did you decide not to get an MSW in the end?
LM: Well, like I said, I was working in family court and it’s really, really taxing. Young as I was, I was starting to burn out and I was thinking, “You know what, I need to step back from this and really think if this is the path that I want to take.” I decided I would go bartend because I had always bartended on and off through college and I knew one of the bartenders at Cubbyhole. She was leaving and she introduced me to the owner, Tanya, and we just hit it off. I started working at Cubby and I just fell in love with the place – with the people, with the vibe, with the owner – and I never left. I became manager after several years and then when Tanya passed away, I took it over.
GS: Wow, you know, it’s so interesting Lisa hearing about your history in social work and sociology and in family court and it makes so much sense to me in this kind of lovely way why you are such an amazing community leader for the lesbian and queer community. I feel like so much of that work must transfer over…
LM: A little bit! I mean, I always wanted to help people! The activist stuff wasn’t my thing because I’m basically shy, but I wanted to help in some way. I mean, I know I’m a bar-owner and I’m shy… (Smiling) But, I am! You know? I’m not the kind to go screaming in the street. I am supportive of that but that wasn’t really my style but I wanted to contribute and I thought that the crisis line was more suited towards me. And, you know, the family court when I first started – I was young and idealistic – I loved it, because I thought I was helping people but the more I worked there the more I realized that it was just a rut and it wasn’t really being effective and it was very disillusioning. And that’s why, yeah, that’s why I kinda transitioned. With the intention of going back to it! But then I just fell in love with this bar! And I guess bartending and stuff is a social work of a different sort.
GS: Totally! And I can totally see how well suited it would be for a shy person – you’re running the whole show but in a way you’re still behind the scenes and you get to sort of foster this environment where people feel at home and safe and welcomed and in a sense providing that type of space is such a powerful thing. And clearly so needed. I’m curious what made you fall so in love with Cubbyhole. I know you were so close with Tanya – it would be great if you could talk a little bit about your relationship with her!
Image courtesy of Lisa Menichino.
LM: Tanya and I… We were very different personalities but we just clicked! We just really liked each other! We just really got each other. She was really smart and she had traits that I admired. She was really outspoken and I liked that. I mean, we would clash a lot but she was just really accepting. No matter what you did. What I found fascinating with her was, for instance, that she had these friends for years and years and years and no matter what anyone did to her, she got over it! Like this one woman who she was best friends with left her with a friend – she was still friends with both of them. She never, ever held a grudge. Never. And no matter what you told her she’d get it. If you told her, “You know Tanya, I got angry and I stabbed somebody!” (Laughing) She’d go, “Ok. Alright. Don’t panic! We’ll figure this out!” It would be like nothing. She never judged you. The only thing – she was an avid animal lover – so, if you were ever unkind to an animal, that she could not forgive. That was her bridge too far. But anything else! So, I loved that! I just never met anyone like that. And the Cubbyhole, she created a space, which I try and continue, where… She was a lesbian, but she always found exclusivity kind of boring. Like, she always wanted a place that could be for lesbians – a safe place of course – but where their friends and their family, whether straight, gay or whatever, would feel welcomed as well! You know? We had some of these places… Like you were asking me whether some of these places weren’t friendly to women and like, yes! And I remember I never understood that. There were some lesbian bars that had an issue with men. I’m like, if they’re coming as, you know, supportive why do we deliberately choose to segregate when we socialize. As long as we’re all respectful. So, she wanted that kind of space and she got criticized for it too. Lesbians criticized her for it whenever they’d come and they’d see there were some men in there and straight people… She’d be like, “Go fuck yourself!” (Laughing) She didn’t care, “This is the kind of environment that I enjoy in my personal life and this is what I want in my business since I spend a lot of time here.” And I understood where she was coming from! She was right. Because it made Cubbyhole a welcome, warm place for everyone.
GS: Yeah. And god, you know, over the years going there, so often myself, I feel that so strongly. You feel the warmth and respect and that is the most amazing thing. It’s such a non-judgement zone. I’m curious because you’ve been at Cubby for so long how have you seen it shift or not over the years?
Image courtesy of Lisa Menichino.
LM: I would say the most noticeable shift is that when I first came out the technological age was just starting and so gay bars were really one of the few places you could go and you could meet someone socially or romantically or whatever. I mean, you could join organizations, that’s true, but those were some of the only options that you had. But with the advent of technology and the internet different venues opened up. You could meet people online and as we assimilated and were accepted more by broader society and we got marriage rights, you could come out at work and meet people, you could go to a straight bar and meet people and so you didn’t need the gay bar for that reason. So, the reasons people go now are to be around other people like themselves but not necessarily to look for a romantic partner or friends. It’s more just to go to a place where you know you’re going to find other people and socialize with other people like you, which is comforting in itself. And you can go on your date and then come for a nightcap there. Or you can go get together with all of your gay friends and then come by for a drink or start there… You know what I mean? That’s this change that I’ve noticed mostly.
GS: Yeah, that’s really interesting. I definitely feel that. I’m relieved that shifts in technology haven’t moved people out of the bars completely. Nothing compares to being physically proximate in a space like Cubby. And perhaps a good lead-up to my final question! There are so many corners of the space of Cubbyhole that have felt so, like, erotic to me in a funny way – For me I always loved the bathrooms and the dancing women plaques on those doors. I’m curious if there is a corner or a part of the space of Cubby that you feel most connected to!
Image courtesy of Lisa Menichino.
LM: (Laughing) You know, when we closed for the remodeling, I would get so many little notes and emails and Instagram messages from people who wanted a piece of whatever I was taking down – like the old wood for the bar, a piece of the old floor… They were outraged that I was taking the old awning off and, you know, it said Cubbyhole, which I epoxied onto the bar. They thought I was going to throw it away! I was getting all of these hostile messages, like, “How could you! That’s history! I’ll pay you whatever you want for it! You should auction it! You can’t throw that out!” (Laughing) It was insane! So, I understand what you’re saying. People find something special about Cubby and they take possession of it. Like… (Laughing) And people who find themselves loving Cubby find a possessiveness towards it. But for me, the special thing is the feeling above the bar and behind the bar. That ceiling for years became where the regulars – whenever they went on vacation – would bring us souvenirs and we would put them up. And we would try not to take it down unless it broke or disintegrated and so it’s a history in itself. It’s like, there’s things up there from, you know, the early ‘90s and from people that may not even come anymore. It has little notes and things… It’s always just… I just always thought that was very special.
GS: Yeah! For me the ceiling just feels like how a family member or, like, a parent figure would keep souvenirs from their children. (Laughing)
LM: (Laughing) For me, the idea of someone feeling so connected to the bar that on their vacation somewhere they would think, “You know what? I’m going to buy this because it would look good on Cubbyhole’s ceiling!” You know? I never take that for granted! Because that’s unusual. I try, if I’m here, if I see that there’s a line, I’m humbled by that. Because, there are like twenty-thousand bars they can go to but they choose to wait on line. Sometimes they choose to wait on line in the cold, in the rain, in the snow! And so, I’ll give them a free drink chip or if I have extra tee shirts, I’ll throw them out! And people are like, “What the hell are you doing that for?” Because I’m just so humbled by it! I mean, they can go anywhere and they choose to wait on line to come into my, you know, this bar! So…
GS: That’s so special Lisa. Well, not to get sappy or whatever, but I just think the world of you and I would not be the lesbian I am today without Cubbyhole. Thank you so much for everything.
“Queen Tanya,” Summer 2008. Image courtesy of Lisa Menichino.
