Dr. Marjorie Hill, Ph.D.
Dr. Marjorie Hill, Ph.D. is a therapist, activist and a member of Salsa Soul Sisters, the oldest black lesbian organization in the United States. Marjorie served on Salsa’s Board of Directors (training her to serve on dozens of other boards after), as an advocate for the gay and lesbian community for Mayor Dinkins beginning in 1990 and as CEO of the Gay Men’s Health Crisis (the oldest AIDS service organization in the world) in 2013. From her committed involvement with Salsa Soul and psychological research on lesbian motherhood to her political advocacy work, Marjorie has centered and uplifted LGBTQ folks of color for decades. She has led younger generations of activist organizations stemming from Salsa including AALUSC [African Ancestral Lesbians United for Societal Change]. The following conversation was recorded on August 2, 2022 at 5pm at Marjorie’s home in Queens, NY.
Marjorie Hill: Is that good for you?
Gwen Shockey: This is perfect! I'm gonna record this on two devices just because sometimes you never know with technology. Anyhow, okay, so I usually begin with the following question: Can you remember the very first place you ever were that was occupied by predominantly lesbian or gay women? It could be a bar or community center or... Maybe it was a Salsa Soul [Sisters] meeting…
MH: I actually do remember! It was a club! I don't remember what street it was on but it was called Medusa's Revenge. And it was, I want to say, the late ‘70s. And I hadn't been out maybe six months or so. And, you know, I had a girlfriend sort of, that's another interview. (Laughing) And, um, I don't know! I heard about this party and went down, thinking this is what lesbians do! They go to parties by themselves! So…
GS: Do you remember what you felt when you walked in?
MH: I was scared as shit. (Laughing) I was nervous that they didn't want to like… That they’d say, “Where is your real lesbian card? Because you're not a real lesbian.” And then it was like, well, what if nobody asked me to dance? And I'm like, wait a minute. People don't have to ask you to dance. You can ask people to dance with. Okay. You don't want to get anybody mad. But ultimately, I ended up actually hanging out with these women that I didn't know from Salsa, but they were very welcoming. You know, sometimes couples are weird about singles...
I was a cutie then. (Smiling)
GS: You’re still a cutie!
MH: And so… But there were two women from Salsa that were clearly a couple and I went up to them and I said, “Can I dance with you?” They said, “C’mon!” So, that's the first really all lesbian space that I went to alone and nervous. Salsa was probably the second all lesbian space that I went to.
GS: I want to know about how you found Salsa. But first I’m curious where you grew up?
MH: I grew up in Brooklyn in Bedford Stuyvesant. My parents both migrated here. My father from Georgia, my mother from North Carolina, and um, my mother lived in Brooklyn. My dad lived in Harlem because that's where everybody lived. And my mother said, “Not me.” And so when he proposed, she said, “Yes, on one condition that you move to Brooklyn…” where she still lives. So, he's deceased, but otherwise he’d still live there, too. So I grew up in Brooklyn.
GS: Were you ever out to them?
MH: I initially came out to my mom. Let me see. I had been seeing someone… I had been seeing a woman for maybe about six months. And I had broken up with my boyfriend of about eight months, but I still stayed in touch with him and he kept hounding me… like not hounding me but like, “Where’d you go out?” And he said, “You know, we were fine! So what's going on?” I say, “You know, we weren't fine! That’s what’s going on!” And then one day, he just bugged me enough and I said, “Alright. I'm a lesbian.” And he's like, “Oh my God, you think you're a lesbian!” And I said, “Yeah! I’m a lesbian!” And he said, “Did you tell your mother?” Which I hadn’t, so that was okay. “Well, you didn't tell your mother you’re not a lesbian unless you tell your mother.” So, I went home… he dropped me off. He was picking me up from somewhere and giving me a ride and he dropped me off about nine or ten o'clock. I go upstairs, I wake up my mother to tell her! “Mom, I have something to tell you.” She sort of turns over and looks at me like… “I'm a lesbian.” So, she's looking at me like, “Who did what?” So then I said, “Okay, I'm gay.” She says, “I'm happy too, go to bed.” (Laughing) My mother’s not getting this! So I said, “I'm a homosexual.” So, that she got! She sat up and she said, “Are you going to drop out of school?” Now, at that point I'm nervous but I, like, want to break into hysterics… but I don't want to break into hysterics because I think, “Oh god now my mother has had a nervous breakdown. She's lost her mind because I've come out.” And I said, “No, of course I'm not gonna drop out…” And she says “Okay, I love you. Go to bed.” That was Friday night. Fine. Saturday, nothing. Sunday, nothing. Monday, I was going to Adelphi. I guess I was a senior at Adelphi or maybe it was my first year of graduate school… Long Island Railroad, right there on Ocean Avenue… and I'm leaving for school with my mom and I said, “Okay, Mom, I'm going to school.” She said, “Have a nice day and tell that girl she can’t come here no more.”
GS: Okay, so this was the girl you were sort of seeing?
MH: So, I was taken aback but you know, I felt like it was her home. As adult as I wanted to be, it was her home. And that if she didn't want a person or persons in her home, it was fine. So I didn't bring anybody to my house. And then I got my own apartment. And somewhere in between there she said, “It's okay. It's okay if your friends come here. I mean, I want to meet your friends.” So, okay. And she did meet a few girlfriends and she was nice. But I don't think it was until I worked for Mayor Dinkins that… I think he really… I guess I don't know what you call it but from a distance he helped her see that we were like regular people! If David Dinkins thought that gay people were okay… I was Director of the Mayor's Office for the Gay and Lesbian Community and we had all these events and my mother would come and
people were always, you know, really nice to her and they’d say, “Oh, we love your daughter. We love you. Thank you for lending her to us!” So, you know. And now she's just you know, “Who’s her girlfriend? Who’s his boyfriend?” (Laughing)
GS: Well, I mean, I'm kind of amazed by how accepting it she seemed right away!
MH: Well, I think… You know… I do think it's in many families to be accepting and they get caught up around what the priest is gonna think or the rabbi is gonna think or what their sister's going to think… but left to their own, they know their kids, they love their kids. They're okay! And given a little time many of them come around. Unfortunately, some do not.
GS: Yeah. Yeah, super true. I want to hear about how you found Salsa Soul Sisters!
MH: Well, it's actually a very short story! At Medusa’s Revenge I met this woman that I danced with other than the couple and she invited me to her house… I went to her house. We tried to make out and it was, like, ridiculous, because we really liked each other and it was, like, clear that we were not really attracted. And we kind of said, “This is not going to work. We should be friends.” And she was Jewish and she said, “You know…” I told her I had just been out a couple of months… And she said, “You ever heard of Salsa Soul Sisters?” And I said, “No!” “You should go. They meet Thursday night at West 3rd Street at the church! You should go.” But she said, “I'm not going to go with you because I think white women shouldn't go there.” (Laughing) Anyway, but she gave me an address and maybe two weeks later, I went! So I was very concerned about what to wear.
GS: Do you remember what you wore?
MH: I exactly remember! You know, it’s terrible. (Laughing) So, I love hats. I don't wear them as much anymore. So I wore a burgundy felt hat sort of tilted on the side, a striped shirt, and burgundy pants. I didn't want anybody to think I was femme, I mean… When people see my photograph, they're gonna laugh. But I just felt like I wanted to be neutral. So, the more butch I looked or tried to look, the more neutral I would be. I mean, it's just sort of… So, I go into Salsa, I sit there, you know, like in the third row. There were like three rows. I sit in the last row, and Candice Boyce, a really wonderful woman who was one of the original founders of Salsa, is sitting in the row in front of me. And at some point, she turns around, and she said, “Oh, my! You’re a pretty thing aren’t you?” So, I'm like, okay, so much for being butch! The number one butch here is like, hitting on me. She had a girlfriend and it wasn't about that, it really was a compliment. But it wasn't just that. I mean, it was a real sense of camaraderie and sisterhood and safety. And I came back, and I came back. And I joined, and I got on the board. And next thing I know, I'm representing Salsa in meetings.
GS: I remember Cassandra mentioning how many services the sisters would provide for each other. Were there services or events that stuck out to you?
MH: There were professional women who did that kind of thing. But I think more of what happened is that someone's mother kicked them out and they had nowhere to go and if they came to Salsa, they went home with somebody, you know. And not, like, “Okay, you're my girlfriend…” Like, “Okay, you'll be okay.” Or if somebody's husband took their kids, you know, people will say, “Oh, yeah, this is what you do. I'll go with you to the attorney!” Or someone got evicted from their house and they said, “Okay, this is the number that you call and this program is very LGBT friendly.” And you know, and so, it was more of that, and I'm sure there were a lot of “Here's a couple of dollars with no strings attached.” I think there were probably folks who were attorneys and physicians, and you know, who provided that kind of level of service, but much more of it was about, you know, women in the world figuring out a way to support each other around the very basics: food, shelter, safety.
GS: What did Salsa provide for you that felt important and what kept you coming back time after time? Other than the beautiful women. (Laughing)
MH: Yeah, the beautiful, beautiful women. The sisterhood! I mean, I learned so much from the women in those rooms. I mean, there were discussions. I mean, it really was about being a space for safety and socializing, but also for education and debate. You know, should male children go to the Women's Music Festival? Yes, if they're under four… (Laughing) I mean, you know how it is. God, we talked about bisexuals and coming out and I mean, just things that we all were thinking about at some point. And either you had come to terms and had very strong opinions, or you hadn't come to terms and you had very strong questions. And so it's a good place to be. And I always felt welcomed. I felt welcomed the first time I went, I felt welcome when I joined the board, which is another funny story. And I felt welcome when it became AALUSC [African Ancestral Lesbians United for Societal Change] and changed and I didn't really know a lot of the women in the same way I had. I mean, it was, you know, a space for women who wanted to drum, women who wanted to make clothing came together and you know, shared, I don't know, fabric and you know. It just was the epitome of what you wanted from sisterhood but all too often were denied it because the church didn't want to, like, in those days was not welcoming. You know, there were very few welcoming churches or generic churches that were saying, oh, yeah, we welcome LGBT people, you know, I mean, they were saying, well, “Love the sinner hate the sin.”
GS: Yeah, in a lot of ways it's kind of ironic, I think, because you were meeting in a church and doing the work that church communities can often foster, like supporting and loving each other. Tell me about joining the board.
MH: So, I was at a meeting. And I think… Oh, I might just be making this up… I think the meeting was in the same space that Medusa’s Revenge was in. But as you know, I might be making this up. So, I come to this board meeting and I've been to Salsa six times, eight times. I'm sitting there and they’re nominating people for the board and they're short one person. And there's a woman sitting in front of me - not Candice… She turns around and said, “Hi, what's your name?” I said, “Marjorie.” She said, “Marjorie what?” I said, “Marjorie Hill.” She said, “Thanks. I nominate Marjorie Hill!” (Laughing) So, I’m sitting there dumbfounded. Because I mean, I had never served on a board before! And they said, “Well, Marjorie! Where’s Marjorie?” And I kind of stood up… You know, I’m six feet tall… Just shy of six feet. But I'm standing up trying to be like five eleven.
So, I got on the board, and I learned how to be on a board! And I've probably since that time been on twenty or thirty of them. And they owe it to Salsa that I had that experience. Because, you know, they were really brilliant women who were dedicated to organizing, to social justice and to women's empowerment, I mean, stuff that I knew about intellectually, but I had never been in a space where women had so embraced it and then tried to translate it into tangible realities.
GS: Yeah, I was curious how Salsa impacted your career. You've been so active in so many social justice areas and of course your decision to study psychology.
MH: You know, I decided I wanted to be either a social worker or a psychologist when I was in tenth grade, and I really could have gone either way. And my mother was not a social worker but worked for what then was BCW, but now it's ACS [The New York City Administration for Children's Services], and child welfare, essentially. And I went down to her job and I went up to the receptionist and I said, “Good afternoon. I'm here to see Mrs. Hill.” And a woman chewing gum barely looked up and said, “You have an appointment?” And I said, “Well, she's expecting me.” She kind of rolled her eyes and said, “Well, do you have an appointment?” So I'm thinking now I have to be appropriate because it's my mother's coworker - because I wanted to say “Go…” you know. So I said well, “She's really expecting me.” So she’s through with me and I guess she's getting ready telling me to go home when down the hall, “Hey baby, hi!” She comes and hugs me and this other lady goes, “Oh! Is this your daughter?” The woman at the desk turned beet red. It was very limited logic but I thought that's how people in social work acted and I decided I didn't want to work in social work. So I had decided that before but what Salsa did influence me and in terms of my dissertation because my study was child rearing attitudes of lesbian mothers.
GS: Oh interesting!
MH: It was very interesting! And Salsa helped me get my subjects. Adelphi, the Institute for Psychological Studies… they were concerned if I was going to be able to get enough lesbian mothers with children between two and four because the scale I was using, that was a requirement. And I said, “I got this.” Now, I probably would have, but it would have taken me a few years and, you know, women from Salsa said, “I'll do it! My cousin will do it!” I mean, I had more than enough samples. So Salsa also was very instrumental in me securing my degree.
GS: Wow, that's amazing. That's amazing.
MH: I had a book party after I published my dissertation. It was in an anthology called Lesbian Psychologies. And it might have been Cassandra. Somebody said, “Well, you gotta have a book party!”
GS: She loves a party!
MH: She loves a party and she loves books. Okay, so I had a book signing at Salsa. My mother came, she was so proud.
GS: Can you still purchase the book?
MH: Probably. But you know, if you want something from the Dark Ages… From when Jesus was a boy. But, Salsa was just home. It was a political, social justice home.
GS: Would you tell us a little bit about your work with Mayor Dinkens?
MH: Oh, gosh, another funny story. So after Salsa’s board, I decided that I liked serving on boards. And I found out about Northstar, which is an organization that provides funding to grassroots organizations. And they had different slots. They had an LGBT slot, they had a housing slot… And I found out the LGBT slot was available. I applied. I was interviewed and I joined the board. Great experience. I had never really done any philanthropy and learned a lot about it. Then it was many, many years ago. And after my term was over, Victor Quintana, who was, I think, the housing person went on to work for Mayor Dinkins. He was Director of Constituent Services. So one day I’m at Kings County, I’m a Senior Psychologist, and Victor calls me and says, “Dr. Hill, how you doing?” I go, “Mr. Quintana! How you doing? You’re so professional now that you've worked for Mayor Dinkins!” And I congratulated him. He said, “Well, that's why I'm calling you. Mayor Dinkins is going to expand constituent services. And he's going to have an office for lesbian and gay community. And I was just wondering if you knew of anyone who might be interested.” And I said, “Where would I send my resume?”
Now, I had never done that. No one believes this. But I had never done that. And there was something about… I just said it! And there was complete silence. So I'm thinking, alright, so now that I have my size ten in my mouth, I should put the other one in. And I said, “Victor is there a problem?” He said, “Well, Dr. Hill, I think of you as a psychologist, as a mental health person, you know, as someone who does social justice work.” And I said, “But you didn't call me up asking for therapy. You know, you call me up asking about the LGBT community.” And you know, so he said, “You got me on that one.” He says, “I'll be in touch.” So now I figured, okay, what do I have to lose? But I went to an interview with a group of people and then ultimately went to an interview with the mayor and the mayor offered me the job! It was one of the happiest days of my life. It was one of the most nerve wracking days of my life!
GS: How long did you serve in that role?
MH: Three and a half years. I started in May of ‘90 - the administration started in January. And in March of ‘93 - whenever the year of the election, I went to Health and Hospitals Corporation. So I didn't really leave the administration but I felt like I wanted to do something more… Less policy and more hands on. But it was incredible. It was just… I marched with the mayor in the St. Patrick's Day parade which I'll never forget. The mayor, you know, said to me, “Get the information on domestic partnership.” You know, “Because people are telling me all different things. You're the person to get me the information.” We did a task force and we recommended it. We did a cost analysis. It was not going to cost cazillions of dollars, like the opposition was saying, and I remember the first day of registration!
GS: Wow. Was this the first time in the city that there had been a task force like this?
MH: In all fairness, Koch had a liaison and towards the end of his term. He sort of created an office but it was clear to everybody that it was kind of a campaign thing. So it was really the first attempt. And the thing that was also different was the African-American Office had a celebration during African-American History Month. The Commission on Status of Women had Women's History Month things and Latino, but there had not been a real LGBT celebration. So I went to the mayor and I said exactly that. And I said, “We have to have an LGBT event. So you can get a hundred and twenty five people in Gracie Mansion for a stand up breakfast. That's the first thing we had. And then I'm thinking, well, that's nice but how come all these other groups have the tent outside? The mayor said it’s because they raised the money. So we raised… I don't know how much it cost… But we raised it and we got a tent and invited, I don't know, five or six hundred LGBT people, most of whom had never been to the Gracie Mansion. And the mayor was just gracious and Mrs. Dinkins was gracious. And you know, it just felt like, “Okay, we're here.” And he said that. He said, “Gracie Mansion belongs to you as citizens of New York.”
Marjorie and Mayor Dinkins. Image courtesy of Majorie Hill.
GS: No wonder your mom was proud!
MH: Yeah! She was there. She has a picture with Dinkins and she's hugging him. And so my dad saw the picture. He didn't go. He saw and he said, “Well, I know you want to take a picture. But you gotta be hugging him? (Laughing) My mother said, “He's the mayor!” She was grinning from ear to ear.
GS: Did you pause your therapy work while you were working for the mayor?
MH: Well, you know, when I left Kings County, I had a small private practice. And, you know, I saw maybe eight or ten people. It was enough to sort of keep my skills sharp. And I told all my clients that I was going to try to continue but you know, I just couldn't do it. Because City Hall is so unpredictable. I remember one Friday - this is before dress down Friday - I go in one Friday and there is nothing on the mayor’s calendar. There's nothing on my calendar. It's like July or August. I didn't have on jeans but I had on like, you know, like khakis and a shirt. And something happened. I don’t remember what it was. And the man wants to do a press conference. And I have to go - I'm like, “Oh my god! I gotta go shopping. I can't go on like this.” But you know, I couldn't because he called me and I had to go. So people say you always look like you dressed up. I say, “Because the one time I wore khakis to City Hall I had to wear them on TV!”
Marjorie and Mayor Dinkins. Image courtesy of Marjorie Hill.
GS: In your role as a therapist and as an advocate, I’m thinking about the new generations of lesbians and queer people using mostly apps and online community networks… I'm a high school teacher and for my summer reading, I had to read a book called The Anxious Generation about the effect of cell phones on kids and I know there's a younger generation of Salsa trying to keep things, you know, in community and in person. But I'm wondering, from all your experience and all your history with community the differences and changes you’ve seen…
MH: I worry. I worry about our nation for a lot of reasons and our country around youth and connectedness. I want to say that in my practice, which is not all LGBT, most people are struggling with how to be connected. Not necessarily how to be married or how to have a girlfriend but how to be connected in a society particularly during and post COVID where we were kind of disconnected. I do all my work on Telehealth and hope my clients all feel that I’m very present. I don’t intend to do in-office… I might, but I don’t intend to. But there are some people who need to be in a room with somebody because they’re life is so… In fact I do have one client that I worry about who is very much isolated and I think I’m doing good work and we constantly talk about him connecting with people - connecting with his family… But he doesn’t really want to do it. If he had to come see me he would. I think for most people it’s ok but I do worry about young people who think it’s ok to break up with somebody via text. It’s like, no! That’s not ok! Or to say that somebody died? I mean all of the things that shortcuts provide but we don’t want a shortcut for breaking up or for letting someone know that someone died. I worry about it. In terms of ALLUSC, we were all very hopeful and proud that there were women who wanted to carry the torch and pass the torch. I think organizing is so different now in many ways!
I mean, I think the whole sense of community is different now. I’m not always sure that that’s better. I’m not always sure that it’s worse either! It’s different, I mean, I don’t know if someone is newly out turning on their Zoom will allow them to feel what I felt when Candice turned around and said, “Oh, you a pretty thing!” (Laughing) I’m an AKA Sorority and during COVID my line sisters, some of whom had connected since we’d pledged and some of us sort of from the periphery, started a weekly call. I joined it and it was wonderful! We pledged… Here I’m going to tell my age… forty-five years ago. During COVID we had our forty-fifth anniversary on Zoom. COVID allowed me to really connect in a way with these women that I hadn’t seen since 1981. So, I mean I think there are real advantages to technology. I think we need to figure out what to do for those individuals for whom it’s not the best choice and also help everyone learn how to be other-than-tech competent. I remember during one black out for some reason the fax lines were working but there were only two people in the whole office that knew how to fax.
GS: (Laughing) The good old days. I think a big takeaway from this book I read was that synchronous communication is so powerful and so necessary for brain development and hearing stories about Salsa, the arguments people would get into and the exchanges in person… there’s nothing like being in person with someone or being present with someone.
Riya Lerner: That spontaneous form of connection like Candice turning around and reaching out to you and forming a connection… That can’t happen in digital spaces in the same way and that loss is impactful.
MH: I have a niece who’s twenty-three - a very young twenty-three - and she’s like glued to her phone! I want to take it away every time I see her and say, “Hi! I’m here! Hello!” We’re all… I mean you’re sitting and having a conversation checking how many medals Simone Biles has… You look it up! I mean, there is something about that that is very powerful and wonderful but there is something also that some people miss out on. You know? So, I worry. I worry.
GS: Me too. I can’t imagine being a teenager and growing up having access to the internet like this. But that’s a whole other topic!
Do you have a favorite memory from Salsa?
MH: Oh man! This is tough! One of my favorites is that for pride Salsa would do a talent show and there would be people who were really talented who would drum and people who could really sing and I love dance! So, one year I signed up but I didn’t tell anybody and I did a modern dance to, um, (Singing) “And I am telling you, I’m not going! You’re the best man…!” Whatever the name of that song was. It was ok! It wasn’t, like, wonderful. But I think people were so shocked! They said, “Encore! Encore! What’s the next one?” And I said, “Next one? I don’t have a next one!” And then all of the sudden… I want to blame Cassandra for everything but it might not have been Cassandra… All of the sudden whoever was doing the music put it back on again and I did it all over again. (Laughing) It was that kind of space that said, “You know, ok, Marjorie. You’re like the chatty Kathy over here, you know, you can talk, you can match colors together, dance not so much but you know, if you want to dance for the talent show you dance!”
GS: We’ll have to put that song on at the Salsa anniversary party at the end of August!
MH: (Laughing) Yeah! Watch the people sing it cause that’s all it’s gonna be!
The other thing was Kwanzaas! We really embraced Kwanzaa. It’s where I learned about Kwanzaa. I had attended Kwanzaas before but I had never really learned it. In those days, people who had the space or didn’t have the space but were open to having folks they knew and some folks they didn’t know in their home would have it and we would do every night except for New Year’s Eve which was Imani… or was it Kuumba? That would be at Salsa or someplace else. People would bring things because you’re supposed to bring things and I learned that Kwanzaa isn’t about the space it’s in or even about the people there or getting the days right, Kwanzaa is about bringing yourself and sharing yourself. The more you bring, the more you get. It became one of my favorite holidays. Now, I think ALLUSC and Men of All Colors Together used to do one day at The Center [on 13th Street] so the tradition continues but back then it would be six people volunteering their houses and some people had small apartments and some people had large apartments but, you know, it didn’t matter! The concept was you had to bring… Really yourself, but you know, you brought apple juice, chicken, whatever… Fishes and loaves kinda.
GS: So special. Wow.
MH: Yeah. Salsa was such an institution and really, really helped mold me into the woman I am and I am forever grateful. I know that is true for many other women. There are moments when it feels like it was just yesterday and other moments when it feels like it was centuries ago. I mean, you know, we didn’t have cell phones! It’s like, bizarre! I mean! There were pay phones! There was a pay phone on the corner of West 3rd and Sixth Avenue that there would be a line at after Salsa.
GS: So many people from my generation and I think those who are younger have this kind of longing for a time like that where it was so present without cell phones and I think needs have just changed really drastically! I’m sure you see that every day in your therapy sessions.
MH: Needs have changed! The other thing real quickly that Salsa did… At least in the people of color community… LGBT community… Men and women tended to interact a little more. In the larger community lesbians to the left and gay men to the right. Salsa and Men of All Colors Together started having tea dances operationalizing our belief that we were one community and it was so much fun! People would complain that the guys were taking up too much room on the dance floor and the guys would complain that the women took up too many chairs because they wanted to sit and flirt! At the end of the day we were all doing it together. It really set the groundwork for a lot of the LG and BT stuff that happened later. I think it was a Sunday tea dance and it was once a month. I’m sure we did it for at least six or seven months. It was a lot of fun!
GS: What decade would that have been in?
MH: I want to say… ‘90s? Maybe late ‘90s. As lesbians of color we felt we couldn’t afford to exclude men or white women even as people were excluding us.
RL: It also sounds like Salsa was really a place where things could be challenging and people didn’t shy away from engaging in that and bringing it back to now I think it is really easy to not engage in things that are hard because of cancel culture in the digital sphere and it’s sad in many ways.
MH: I mean, I could have done without a few of those arguments but they helped me form my ideas! There were things that I felt really strong about and some things that I really wasn’t sure! Other people who had really strong different opinions helped me figure things out… Like, ok! Maybe we can let five year old boys go to the Michigan Women’s Music Festival. (Laughing)
RL: I love how it always comes back to Mich Fest.
MH: Oh god…
GS: It’s true though, it teaches you to debate in a healthy way and it teaches you to communicate hopefully in a healthy way.
MH: Then, usually after the meeting there was a period of time where we went to Bonnie & Clyde’s after and there was a period of time where Salsa met way uptown on 145th Street and we went to some club that I don’t remember but it was attached to the place we were meeting and then there was a point where we went to… I’m trying to think… It was downtown… Not Henrietta Hudson… After Salsa a lot of people would then go somewhere and hang out. It wasn’t just about being intellectually political it was also about, you know, hanging out and socializing and having fun and flirting!
GS: Did people meet their partners through Salsa?
MH: A lot of people met partners! A lot of people got in trouble! (Laughing) Yep, yep, yep, yep!
GS: We’ll keep that part off the record.
MH: But you know, I think it really was a space where people were allowed to make mistakes. Like, “Ok. This is my woman. Don’t do it again.” Sometimes when I talk about it I think, wow. It couldn’t have been like that. But it really was! It really was this safe space, social justice, women supporting haven where people could come and be. There was one woman who was brilliant and had a major break. She was in and out of the hospital but when she wasn’t in the hospital she would make her way to Salsa! Sometimes she made sense and sometimes she didn’t but everyone was respectful. This was before everyone was talking about rights for people with mental health challenges. In fact, I was glad when she came because at least we knew where she was! For many of us it was the first organizing experience we had! I suspect I would be a different and less good organizer had I not had that experience.
GS: Do you have any advice for younger organizers?
MH: You know… I think… (Chuckles quietly) Don’t be right all the time. Don’t feel you have to be right all the time. And make room not only for you to be wrong but make room for other people to be wrong. There is so much, you know, “This is the space! And anybody outside the space… Like, ok! You can’t hang here!” That’s draining and it’s limiting. It’s exhausting. So, I think just try to be open! Open to new voices! Open to change! Open to one’s own vulnerability! You know?
GS: A beautiful place to end. Are you excited about Kamala Harris? Isn’t she an AKA sister?
MH: (Clapping) She’s an AKA all the way! Now, where are my pearls? Somebody said they were going to wear pearls. I’m not really active. They do a monthly Zoom and they text - somebody texted that all AKA should wear their pearls until the election. I have pearl earrings on. Yes, I’m very excited.
